"Catch-22" in Iraq?

[mnaz]

The parallels are unmistakable.... and chilling. US foreign policy in general is filled with these sorts of two-faced, strong-armed tactics in the name of national security, or high-minded principles of "freedom", particularly since the sixties.... (the Cold War is always cited as the "reason"). It has been about building up toxic to fight perceived toxic for decades, only to discard our adopted toxic when it no longer suits our purposes. This has been done with little regard for the hardships brought upon the affected citizenry in the process.

A very pertinent link....

Thanks.

[Dave The Dov]

Basically it's a post Cold war senario or it other words the meddling of our country's past has finally caught up with it. Iraq and Afghanistan is where it ended and it started with those two countries as well. The shadow of Vietnam will keep on haunting us until we have learned from our country's mistakes. Never to ever repeat then again.
_________________
federal government grants

[stilltrucking]

Thinking about your thought experiment Prof. do you think it will be twenty years before the citizens of the United Snakes of America will bring on a regime change.

What if, in order to "free" us from the nasty dictator and authoritarian regime under which we lived, that Power decided it had to stay in place, doing all the things cited above, for ten to twelve years?

And what if, in the process of doing all these things, that Power lied, and lied again? What if its very presence near us, "protecting" us, and maintaining this deadly environment in which we are being forced to live daily, was completely predicated upon lies?

I don't see much hope unless he cleans house at the Department of Defense. Rumsfeld was on his way out before. Washing Post running stories about his up coming replacement, then september eleventh saved his job
But no chance of dear leader firing rip van rumsefld, we all know how loyal he is to his friends, snicker snicker, or maybe I should say $nicker.

Another thing you are right about the war being calculated on the bottom line. Done on the cheap to maximize prophets (christianz)
My hear broke when the museums were looted onthe third day of the war, not enough troops. I wish I knew, but it beats me, there are some capable military men in the pentagon, they kept their heads down when the others were losing there's. But rumsfeld is a loyal friend of bubba, he got job security. What is next Prof Z the masada complex, never again, what is the end game, priestly whispers of nukes our only option now. It is already a nuclear war. Hell fire and DU's geez I got no stomach for it anymore. Jimbo what about the those security moms, how long before they stand up to their fears, stop letting the masters of deciet drag them around? The Kerry campaign in the beginning such a diaster, Mz Heinz should have wore pink. Who ran that campaign for him. I wonder what would have happened if he won, both houses in the hands of the repubs, he would have replaced rumsfeld for one thing. Shoot yeah zlat this is a great string aint had so much fun since P and P board.

thanks you all


Mnaz this will go down as the most corrupt administration ever. Worse then U S Grant or Harding.

[jimboloco]

This morning on hearing the news
blasts in London, my wife said,
"It's where Jack the Ripper was.
The war in Iraq didn't stop them,
did it?"

What we now have to look forward to.
Yes, years. The Power rules.
He's loyal to his friends,
a populist public relations pimp.

Oh never mind.

Today am chanting Heart Sutra and BOWS.
Back in the abyss.

http://kwanumzen.org/practice/chants/he ... glish.html

[e_dog]

Joseph Heller is one of the best political anlysts of all time.

Catch-22 should be read in every school in the West.

[mnaz]

time for an update: A 2012 report on Iraq's "freedom rating":

http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/free ... /2012/iraq

ten years after the invasion ....

rating: 5.5
status: not free.

Within days of the completion of the U.S. withdrawal, tension arose once again between Sunni and Shiite political parties. In an apparent power grab by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki’s ruling coalition, an arrest warrant was issued for Vice President Tariq al-Hashmi, a Sunni politician, alleging him of running a “death squad” that targeted police and government officials. Al-Hashmi fled to the northern Kurdish region, but arrests of other Sunni, Baathist, and secular Shiite political figures followed.

... after the U.S. troop withdrawal in December, barriers to political participation appeared to be growing for Sunni and secular political actors in light of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki’s attempts to consolidate power.

Iraq is plagued by pervasive corruption at all levels of government. A national Integrity Commission is tasked with fighting corruption, but it conducts its investigations in secret and does not publish its findings until the courts have issued final decisions. The overwhelming majority of offenders enjoy impunity, largely because of an amnesty law allowing ministers to intervene and dismiss charges . . . . there were numerous reports of government attempts to silence corruption whistleblowers . . . . reports suggest that ordinary citizens must resort to bribery to accomplish simple bureaucratic tasks like obtaining vehicle license plates. Iraq was ranked 175 out of 183 countries surveyed in Transparency International’s 2011 Corruption Perceptions Index.

Violent retribution has hindered journalists’ ability to report widely and objectively. There was an increase in intimidation and violence against journalists in 2011, including a series of physical attacks on reporters during the summer months. Most prominently, in September, well-known critical radio personality Hadi al-Mahdi was shot dead in his Baghdad home only days after expressing fears that the government would harm him. The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) estimates that over 140 journalists have been killed since 2003, while Reporters Without Borders (RSF) puts the number closer to 230.

The criminal procedure code and the constitution prohibit arbitrary arrest and detention, though both practices are common in security-related cases. The constitution also prohibits all forms of torture and inhumane treatment and affords victims the right to compensation, but there are few effective safeguards in place. A previously unknown detention facility where credible accusations of torture were reported was found to be under the direct control of the prime minister’s office in 2010.

this is discouraging.

[tarbaby]

Yes,
"Give me a home where seldom is hear'd"

[tarbaby]

Yes,
"Give me a home where seldom is hear'd"

I don't lose any sleep over it, I just got this lonely feeling.

[tarbaby]

Kind of an Emily Dickinson feeling,

Iraq is done, I don't spend much time dwelling on it anymore, I voted for Obama twice since then. The blood is on my hands too.

I don't lose much sleep over the drone killings either.

Even if those birds will come home to roast

"when we arm ourselves we arm our enemies." The Human Use of Human Beings"

I don't know what you mean discourage. What would encourage us?

I think I am going to break out the tequila

[stilltrucking]

I guess I should start another thread and call it "Catch-22 in Drones"
But this is such an excellent thread I want to post it here cause you are all such honorable men.

I was raised on paranoia, so I keep a close eye on these opinions of mine. I am surely not the only one who sees the danger, Obama (also an honorable man)— surely he must see them too. Yet he goes along with it, they say that the kill list is his attempt to limit the bloodshed by not letting the Generals and Spooks run amok with the technology. We are a kinder gentler empire and we will bitch to the United Nations if North Korea starts using drones too.

I decided against the tequila I went to the Shiner Blonde. One of the finest beers I have ever had the pleasure to drink.

Today I am into the bittter herbs again so please mnaz if you would be so kind pardon the high jack again.

not that I am changing the topic of this thread, but it is such a good one maybe we should have a board for catch-22 anything



thanks for starting this thread

[mnaz]

i was looking for that 2005 thread, in which i argued with knip about the "global war on terror", still in its infancy, and the imperial war/slash/death industry with a raging hard-on at the time (at almost any time since the late '40s), but i couldn't find it. so i booted this thread up ....

anyway, regardless of "our" continued military participation or not (for awhile, I thought it would go on for literally decades), the one positive outcome anyone could hope for out of this illegal naked geopolitical act of military aggression (operation "iraqi freedom") was--- well ... freedom.

and how is that working out?

i read that iran now has a few drones (they "cloned" the one they "captured")

but i ain't worried. we still gots bigger gunz and bombz than they do... our leaders saw to it. parable of the bigger weapon...

disconnect.

[stilltrucking]

oh yes the catch-22 of the "global war on terror"

I guess you have read the novel and know exactly what the catch is. That is what I meant when I said it makes me feel lonely.

[Diana Moon Glampers]

Makes me feel crazy
Normal people think it makes sense
We got to have a strong defense
We got to be the world's cop too
Pax Americana
Sure that's what peace looks like
a waste land

Freedom is just another word when you live in a "messianic democracy"

[Diana Moon Glampers]

Criticism of Rousseau's ideas—wicki

Talmon's 1952 book The Origins of Totalitarian Democracy discusses the transformation of a state in which traditional values and articles of faith shape the role of government into one in which social utility takes absolute precedence. His work is a criticism of the ideas of Jean-Jacques Rousseau, a French philosopher whose ideas influenced the French Revolution. In The Social Contract, Rousseau contends that the interests of the individual and the state are one and the same, and it is the state's responsibility to implement the "general will".
The political neologism "messianic democracy" also derives from Talmon's introduction to this work:

Indeed, from the vantage point of the mid twentieth century the history of the last hundred and fifty years looks like a systematic preparation for the headlong collision between empirical and liberal democracy on the one hand, and totalitarian Messianic democracy on the other, ... Herbert Marcuse, …liberty can be made into a powerful instrument of domination. … Free election of masters does not abolish the masters or the slaves..."[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarian_democracy

[mnaz]

---"Free election of masters does not abolish the masters or the slaves..."

exactly.

and no, i've never read catch 22, but i tried to apply the idea here ...