Studio8 - Uniting the Arts

Be very, very careful around those Jesuits... I went to one of their high schools and I fear they corrupted me in ways I fail to comprehend... and that is their purpose...

Jesuits make so much sense.
I think if I flunk my examination for a poetic license I may become a priest instead.

I think you'd look smart in priestly garb with that touch o' white collar, JT... with that on you can call your own poetic shots.

NS: I've yet to see anyone morn their own personal death experience.

Odd we enter this world screaming from fear and leave with a contented emptiness as if we're happy to get the hell outta here!

NS: I bet you've already told those near and dear to you to quickly move on, and spend as little time dwelling on your own passing as is possible, no?

Are you nutz !! It's not the passing they grieve as much as it is the griever's loss that they themselves are grieving, my friend. And who am I to suggest to them that their grief is silly and unnecessary? This too will pass and they will hook up with another's 'opposable thinking' ...


I spend absolutely no time at all theorizing anything after my death, and I seriously doubt there is anyone doing the same. So, should I depart before you do, N(on)S(top), just remember your time is mighty short. haha!

I saw Haiti news for some minutes during my staying in Bolivia. So sad...!. Good to know that some kind of aid is landing there, also from my country. I hope most of them is not a double-intention help.

beautiful old poem, Cecil! & gracias for the stream!!

saludos,

Arcadia

PS: curious how you ended talking about jesuits! (I was raised by sacramentines and adoratrices )

Vacacion en Bolivia? what was there to draw you to that country? solamente, curious.

the travel was to Bolivia-Perú and north of Chile (some places of them, of course! too wide...!), the causes multiples, I guess: I wanting to visit Bolivia and Peru since a long time, also the zone of the salitre in Chile since I visited the V region nine years ago, they are relativily near my country and I could go by bus , I wanted to see Bolivia´s people living daily during the government they have now, I love the landscape of the three countries, I´m a History and Archeology nut, I read novels and poems and chronicles located in those lands, I know people from that countries that emigrated to mine, I had enough free time and some money to spend, I found two friends that wanted to do more or less the same path this summer... curiosity satisfacida? I´ll post some photos in the old travelogue forum later!. And always good to read all of you again in the studio, maybe weirdly, you are already part somehow of my familiar world!

(M)ortal(T)erminus: Odd we enter this world screaming from fear and leave with a contented emptiness as if we're happy to get the hell outta here!

NS: Makes sense to moi. Life is just one more prison where one either awaits their pardon, or digs a tunnel.

MT: Are you nutz !!

NS: After all this time, you have to ask

MT: It's not the passing they grieve as much as it is the griever's loss that they themselves are grieving, my friend.

NS: Yes, making for a large part of survivor's guilt.

MT: And who am I to suggest to them that their grief is silly and unnecessary?

Ns: You are the only one in that scenario who is qualified to forgive them before the fact. And, to assure them that your death is more the occasion for a celebration than tears, or guilt.

MT (Missing Thanatopsis): I spend absolutely no time at all theorizing anything after my death, and I seriously doubt there is anyone doing the same.

NS: Your wife and progeny give no thought to a world sans Cecil, is that what you are saying? And, you give no thought, or preparation, for them when they find inevitably themselves in that world?

MT: So, should I depart before you do, N(on)S(top), just remember your time is mighty short. haha!

NS: I've already predeceased you, old boy.
"Do you not see that when a man is awakened, he becomes indifferent
to the world and grows cold; he also melts and perishes." (Jalal Al-din Rumi)

Howdy, N(eo) S(aturday)... I was beginning to envision you falling deep within your within without an escape to be found to assure you that you are indeed the you you live to be. Welcome back, my friend.

[FYI, your reply coincided with my baking another loaf of NonSumBread, this time cutting the recipe in half.]

NS: "Makes sense to moi. Life is just one more prison where one either awaits their pardon, or digs a tunnel."

Have you made sense of life as easily as you've made sense of my statement? I ask thee, amigo, if life is (but) one more prison, who, what and why has doled out this sentence?

NS: After all this time, you have to ask?

Nyet, Senor.... only affirm.

NS: Yes, making for a large part of survivor's guilt

Ah, but guilt is but one more stepping stone on the path to understanding. Don't let its expression bring about a loss of humility towards those that find their guilt necessary.

Ns: You are the only one in that scenario who is qualified to forgive them before the fact. And, to assure them that your death is more the occasion for a celebration than tears, or guilt.

Have you not experienced tears of joy, my friend... those tears that deliver a relief from suppression that longed to find release which arrived with the call of sadness from the griever? A blessing that assures one that love is more than the four mere letters we ascribe to that most divine level of surrender.

NS: And, you give no thought, or preparation, for them when they find inevitably themselves in that world?

You seem quite certain of my passing before those you mention. Do you have an insight which I have failed to discover?

If there is some assurance, amigo, there was an hour or so, one time many moons ago, where SooZen and myself created a scenario where we had a limited time left on this mortal plane and we made a menu we would like to have prepared and served to a list of friends and acquaintances, along with a list of music we would like to have played during the celebration of our departure. It is this particular conversation with you that brought back those memories when that little fantasy was played out, thank you!

"Do you not see that when a man is awakened, he becomes indifferent
to the world and grows cold; he also melts and perishes." (Jalal Al-din Rumi)

Have you questioned why Rumi, of all people, would ask "do you not see..?" to one who obviously is not awakened to verify what an awakened individual already has known?

It's not incumbent upon the enlightened to act in any particular manner, for enlightenment not only awakens but frees the individual from doctrines and beliefs that once held sway, now allowing the Self to simple Be, without doubt, without restraint, without doctrine or rules... a total immersion into Pure Consciousness (the True Baptism), boundless and liberated from ego.

Hello M(anly) T(exan),

MT: I was beginning to envision you falling deep within your within without an escape to be found to assure you that you are indeed the you you live to be.

NS: Never waste your precious time or concern for the grateful dead; come what may, nothing foul further befalls them.

”Life is not so precious for me now, since I know that it has
already been lost." (Zen poet Dokan Ota)

How did your ½ NS-bread turn out? What flavor? I’m lucky to make a bread last past 3 days, and am beginning to wonder if I shouldn’t make two at a time. Tomorrow an apple bread will arrive for a short visit.

MT: Have you made sense of life as easily as you've made sense of my statement?

NS: As regards ‘your statements,’ I merely shoot at where I presume the target stands, and await the spotter’s correction.

As regards the “sense” of life, I don’t believe there is any such thing to be had by human mind; thus my philosophic skepticism. But, where analysis fails, phenomenological reportage must suffice.

MT (Merciless Taskmaster): I ask thee, amigo, if life is (but) one more prison, who, what and why has doled out this sentence?

NS: This impossible question is just more of the same attempt at “making sense of life.” Cannot be done, my inquisitive friend. I do, though, agree with the mystic truth that all worlds arise in the mind alone, and are inherently unreal. And that to hold exclusively to what is Real frees one from mind’s delusive trance, aka ‘life in a world.’ This liberation is The real and permanent death.

MT: Ah, but guilt is but one more stepping stone on the path to understanding. Don't let its expression bring about a loss of humility towards those that find their guilt necessary.

NS: If you take life to be real, you can then assume anything that occurs is “necessary” to reality. If you take it all for delusion, you can safely assume that none of it is necessary to reality. Given the latter ‘take,’ whatever stumbling stones are removed on the unreal path to understanding only bring about a shorter, easier, journey to delusion’s end. Since it is a path of ‘disillusionment,‘ and not one of acquisition.

The only real “humility” is achieved by entirely denying one’s self. Anything short of that makes ‘humility’ into a badge of honor.

”Take the famous utterance, "I am God." Some men reckon it as a
great pretension; but "I am God" is in fact a great humility. He
who says "I am the servant of God" asserts that two exist. But he
who says "I am God" has naughted himself and cast himself to the
Winds.” (Rumi)

MT: Have you not experienced tears of joy, my friend... those tears that deliver a relief from suppression that longed to find release which arrived with the call of sadness from the griever?

NS: “Grieving” is a futile exercise in suffering. Though grieving is socially expected, and pridefully taken as noble, it is, in actuality, just one more negative emotion productive of pain. Negative emotions should always be rooted out as quickly as possible, and never indulged.

MT: You seem quite certain of my passing before those you mention. Do you have an insight which I have failed to discover?

NS: Not at all, but shouldn’t all likely eventualities be considered, and steps taken in preparation?

MT: Have you questioned why Rumi, of all people, would ask "do you not see..?" to one who obviously is not awakened to verify what an awakened individual already has known?

NS: I’ve read a good deal of Rumi, and took this as another example of his poetic expression. In this case he is attempting to draw the uninformed hearer’s attention to a fact he wishes to share. No need to inform those who ‘do see.’

MT: It's not incumbent upon the enlightened to act in any particular manner, for enlightenment not only awakens but frees the individual from doctrines and beliefs that once held sway, now allowing the Self to simple Be, without doubt, without restraint, without doctrine or rules... a total immersion into Pure Consciousness (the True Baptism), boundless and liberated from ego.

NS: The enlightened don’t act in any manner at all. They are no longer the one who acts as fate has scripted the not-self to act. They are indifferent to the person they once took themselves to be, just as you are to the person you took yourself to be within a dream, but now sit awake at the breakfast table recounting that dream person’s actions, which already “melt and perish” in your memory and concern.

”Only because the self is absolutely negated in the great death
experience can we transcend both the sacred and the profane, and
live in this secular city by transcending it.” (Shoju-rojin)

G'day, N(ear)S(ighted)... a good day to expand your visions!

Let us begin in order of importance, as usual... not favoring the adage: save the best for last.

NS: How did your ½ NS-bread turn out? What flavor? I’m lucky to make a bread last past 3 days, and am beginning to wonder if I shouldn’t make two at a time. Tomorrow an apple bread will arrive for a short visit.

The 1/2 loaf turned out very well, thank you! It baked up in 35-40 mins, after a rather fast prep time of perhaps 15 mins, more or less. To have a fresh baked pan of whole wheat bread, nutritionally satisfying and delicious to boot in one hour is a far cry from waiting 2-1/2 -3hrs for a conventional loaf whose recipe calls for cutting the goodness of whole wheat w/ white bread flour.

The latest loaf was simple... only addition being chopped pecans along with the addition of wheat germ and ground flax seed, agave substituted for sugar and a reduction of salt by half, created a satisfyingly engaging treat to go along with my pot of Anazazi beans cooked up with a couple of smoked turkey wings, chopped onion and chopped garlic.

NS: Never waste your precious time or concern for the grateful dead...

Back in SF, the late 60's-early 70's, my precious time was well spent at many a grateful dead concert... along with throngs of dead heads in a splendid gathering reflecting a joy and comfort one might imagine a non-dysfunctional family would be like. But that is not what you suggested, only what your suggestion created in this old head of mine.

I do find some of my time to be so precious I will reach out and pinch it's cheeks and watch the face of time smile back at me. If that little pinch slows down the advancement of time by mere seconds, I'm grateful.

NS: As regards the “sense” of life, I don’t believe there is any such thing to be had by human mind; thus my philosophic skepticism. But, where analysis fails, phenomenological reportage must suffice.

Well, my friend, your "I don't believe" will certainly give you a headstart in comprehending any sense of life despite the idea you maintain that our all too hu'man mind is incapable of this comprehension. Philosophical skepticism is fine for mind gaming but when one deals with reality face-to-face, it is that confrontation which furthers the comprehension that there is indeed a pattern in life that is closely adhered to by life itself... too grand and too mysterious to by fully understood by intellect alone, one must transcend mind and embrace the All-ness in full surrender... absolute trust in the journey, not planned by yourself, but akin to dropping into the waters of life allowing the current to take you where it will.

NS: This impossible question is just more of the same attempt at “making sense of life.” Cannot be done, my inquisitive friend.

Cannot be done? Which post-it-note quotation did that come from? The impossible can easily become the i'm possible... not the illogical, of course, but when it has been stated 'all things are possible', don't simply hunt down some thing that cannot be rationally accomplished just to make rubbish of the idea. That is self-defeating and not living up to your own full potential, I'm quite sure. You can make sense of life just as you can make bread of life... knowing the recipe to create that which you need. This may require dropping the intellectual approach which often becomes extraordinarily boring and uninteresting.

NS: I do, though, agree with the mystic truth that all worlds arise in the mind alone, and are inherently unreal. And that to hold exclusively to what is Real frees one from mind’s delusive trance, aka ‘life in a world.’ This liberation is The real and permanent death.

What say thee to the world you envision beyond your mind? Is somehow that revelation more real than mind's reality?

We have differing definitions regarding this word, 'real'... which you define to be that which is beyond mind, while I find all things beyond 'mind' (therein which reality is conceived) to be Truth. Reality is when I burn my finger on a hot pot handle and the pain delivers the message to my brain to react, while I scream out "ouch!" That is real... that is fact... it has little to nothing to do with Truth. This is not a problem with the way we 'see' these things, but a problem with how we define that which we 'see'.

NS: If you take life to be real, you can then assume anything that occurs is “necessary” to reality. If you take it all for delusion, you can safely assume that none of it is necessary to reality.

I do take life to be real... it's our only reality that all Truth springs from. Ever since hu'man began thinking, it was Nature which gave thought the impetus to 'drive the gears of thought'. Is Nature real? Absolutely. Has our knowledge given us a broader view of what this life is and what it is capable of doing? Yes. This is as real as any thing can and will be. Is your morning shit nothing more that a delusion that is nothing more than an illusion? Nyet! The only delusion there is your own delusion to what you believe reality to be.

Wisdom is gained from the observation of Nature, the original Reality which sustains all Life. No delusion there. What's to delude and for what purpose? Foolishness. I would be lying to myself if I took your advice and "take it all for delusion, you can safely assume that none of it is necessary to reality." That's some misguided mystic voodoo that has nothing to do with the reality that we are engaged in today in this cyber-conversation. If I am not real and you are not real and what we are conversing about is not real, what's the point? Mysticism is not disavowing reality as we participate in our daily doings, but rather mysticism is engaging in thought which defies logic and has the capability to bring us to an alternative state of consciousness that more closely approximates 'knowing god'.

Once we know god we know our Self. But that does not, nor should, refute our reality. Knowing our true Self allows to make sense of our hu'manity and our responsibility to life as hu'man beings. We cannot be anything else but hu'man beings as long as our Self dwells with this body. To think or escape to some other world but this one world we are on is escapism... a denial and refutation of your Self and thusly, your own Being.

Note what you have written, my friend -

NS: “Grieving” is a futile exercise in suffering. Though grieving is socially expected, and pridefully taken as noble, it is, in actuality, just one more negative emotion productive of pain. Negative emotions should always be rooted out as quickly as possible, and never indulged.

This sounds like the escapism that I wrote about... "negative emotions should always be rooted out as quickly as possible... blah, blah, blah..." What kind of living is this? Denial of your emotions, the very emotions that make us hu'man is supposed to be more preferred than Being what you are? You desire to become some one or thing which sounds transcendental and mystical to your mind and you feel disavowing your very emotions will take you on a path to the Divine itself..? Foolishness! Accept what you are and realize there are things within you that want and need your attention, like your offspring in their infancy, we all have the unknown within us that are us waiting to be discovered. Don't deny that journey as being some delusional waste of time. It's all part of Knowing Thyself... using any and all tools necessary to discover not only Self, but our hu'manity that contains Self.

... and in winding down to the least important -

NS: The enlightened don’t act in any manner at all. They are no longer the one who acts as fate has scripted the not-self to act.

This sounds like a prescribed act to me... walking the walk of the enlightened while wearing your own shoes does not make the path the same.

<center>_______

Poetic Utterance</center>

Spill forth your words upon the blank space
unravel your thoughts born of silence
transcend the conditioning of your life.

Seek the womb of imagination
for it is within that sacred place
the pulse of impulse drives our being.

The metronome of our heartbeat swinging
right to left to right keeping
our serenity in opposition to chaos.

Between this eternal flux lies our soul
disguised by our indifference while
we play the fool upon this human stage...

The seeker, the pilgrim, of dreams of change
forever unrelated to our core essence
we're led to distrust our very desires

We forfeit our gift from the mystery of life
for the unpalatable banquet set before us
leaving us with a hunger never fully satisfied

the day may arrive in our search
when these material ghosts that haunt us
will vanish into the illusionary vapor of laughter

where we will finally come to understand
that life was made for the explorer in us
and in that exploration stillness will reveal truth

[]5/24/02

Salutations M(asterful) T(oastmaster)

MT: G'day, N(ear)S(ighted)... a good day to expand your visions!

NS: Does expanded vision contract one’s horizons, as do binoculars?

I’m glad your reduced recipe succeeded, as it should since 2 cps WW flour was its original incarnation before my gluttony began to slowly nudge it upwards. I agree that the horror of white flour is to be absolutely avoided. I can’t even imagine my eating white bread it has been so long since the Marine Corps forced me to swallow it along with the rest of its crap.

I hoped my allusion to the band, ‘The Grateful Dead,’ would send a fellow head, from my generation, head tripping back into psychedelic time’s past. I spent a long and magic night dancing in The Boston Gardens to one of their marathon concerts; or so I’m told.

MT: I do find some of my time to be so precious I will reach out and pinch it's cheeks and watch the face of time smile back at me. If that little pinch slows down the advancement of time by mere seconds, I'm grateful.

NS: Nice imagery! Like Siddhartha, I, unlike NS, sit beside the river of time in preference to being carried in it. Who, or what, one takes themselves to be can make for major perspectival changes.
”Whatever is concerned with time is mortal.” (Eckhart)
You appear to take yourself as primarily a human creature, with a something spiritual hidden within you. I OTOH, take myself to be pure spirit, whilst unreal dreams play across a mind’s screen.

MT: Philosophical skepticism is fine for mind gaming but when one deals with reality face-to-face, it is that confrontation which furthers the comprehension that there is indeed a pattern in life that is closely adhered to by life itself... too grand and too mysterious to by fully understood by intellect alone, one must transcend mind and embrace the All-ness in full surrender... absolute trust in the journey, not planned by yourself, but akin to dropping into the waters of life allowing the current to take you where it will.

NS: Yes, life obviously has “patterns,” but as you say, it remains “too mysterious to be fully understood by the intellect.” This (I.e. mental comprehension) I took for your intended inquiry regarding making “sense” of life.

I take your comments to implicate, what is called in philosophy (sans aspersions), ‘naïve materialism,’ or at best an ‘empiricism.’ I’m much more of the ‘idealist’ school. Most of your better empiricists freely admit that direct knowledge is limited to ‘sensa’ which, while indicating an external world, in no way verifies its actuality. Kant will tell you that ‘the world’ may not in fact exist at all. Mind, body, world, (like the gods) are ultimately based on faith, not experience. Since no one has ever intuited a world outside of their mind’s conception of one.

”It is clear that no proofs drawn from the empirical consideration of the world can be conceived which could assure us with absolute certainty of the world’s existence.” (Edmund Husserl, father of modern Phenomenology)

I harbor no prejudice against ‘people of faith,’ for they are the common run of humanity. It is certainly understandable that people should desire certitude in their ephemeral lives. I certainly value it. But, I don’t, won’t, and can’t, do ‘faith’ in order to fake Truth. So, I hold to the one direct experience that is impossible to doubt (i.e. ‘I Am’), and doubt all else. So, you see, I have my small portion of certitude, but without the shaky crutch of faith. True, it is not much in appearance to hold on to, this little, ‘I Am,’ but I am a man easily contented.
”Knowing and recognizing myself, I have merged in the Truest of the True.” (Guru Nanak Dev, founder of Sikhism)

MT: I'm quite sure. You can make sense of life just as you can make bread of life... knowing the recipe to create that which you need. This may require dropping the intellectual approach which often becomes extraordinarily boring and uninteresting.

NS: Yes, I quite agree with you, there comes a point where the intellectual approach proves itself inadequate to this metaphysical task. Your next step apparently is to “create that which you need.” Fine for you, if it works for you. But, if I did that, whatever “truths” I then held I would know full well to have been ‘made up.’ Not a very satisfying bread, that. At least, not for this entity. I took another course entirely in my search for ‘T’ruth. Like Descartes, I threw it all away. Unlike Descartes, I chose to hold Only to what cannot be thrown away, i.e. what is “True.”

”What a happy adobe is nothingness!” (Ansari, Sufi guy)

MT: What say thee to the world you envision beyond your mind? Is somehow that revelation more real than mind's reality?

NS: All “envisioning” is done in the mind. All worlds are mind’s creations, dreams, and illusions.

”Mind precedes things, dominates them, creates them.” (‘The Dhamapada’ Buddhist scripture)

”Are you in the world, or is the world within you?”
“You don’t live in ‘the world,’ you live in the Self.” (Ramana, Hindu Advaitist)

MT: We have differing definitions regarding this word, 'real'.

NS: Yes, I suppose we do. I always favored Shankara’s definition:
”That which neither comes nor goes, never changes, and depends upon nothing else in order to exist.” And, I would add to that, ‘that which is impossible to successfully doubt, or be rid of.’ All else besides is ‘unreal,’ and I refuse to take it seriously (including ‘NS’).

”The false self is a monumental illusion.” (Thomas Keating, modern Christian mystic)

MT: Reality is when I burn my finger on a hot pot handle and the pain delivers the message to my brain to react, while I scream out "ouch!" That is real... that is fact.

”In all perception, thou perceives in the first place only thyself and thine own condition.” (Johann Fichte, philosopher)

NS: I’ve had many dreams wherein I felt pain, and had a brain that reacted and screamed “ouch!” with a human mouth. Was that person “real” after all, simply because he did those imagined actions? Even modern physics makes particle mush of the world you take so naively at human face value. Metaphysical inquiry takes a bit more effort than taking the apparent for the actual, my philosophic phrend.

MT: Once we know god we know our Self.

Ns: I would say that you have it backwards.
’Muhammad said: “Who knows his true Self, knows his Lord.”’ (Islamic Hadith)

”Selfhood, as such, is Spirit.” (Schelling, philosopher)

MT: "negative emotions should always be rooted out as quickly as possible... blah, blah, blah..." What kind of living is this? Denial of your emotions, the very emotions that make us hu'man is supposed to be more preferred than Being what you are?

NS: You should note that I recommended rooting out ‘Negative’ emotions as one might root out unwanted ‘weeds’ from a garden, not all emotion. (If this is a good practice for a patch of dirt, how much more so for our living psyche?) It is nothing more than rational Epicureanism (i.e. intelligent hedonism). We, as mortals, have a finite life within this dream world wherein a being is only living happily if he acts to avoid suffering and to enhance pleasure; I trust you agree. Since we have only a finite set of life moments, the net sum total of which comprises our happy/miserable life, we should take care to guard each instant from pain, and to maximize its pleasure. I do this continually, and never suffer mental pain because of it. I’ll teach you the technique if you’re ever interested.

I enjoyed your poem, and snatched it since once again it appeared to communicate a higher wisdom than the one your prose ostensibly espouses. Not to say that I did not enjoy your critique, and the elaboration of your own philosophy, not at all. You are welcome to personally reject philosophic & religious “mysticism,” but believe me and the various above quoted sources, like it or not, THAT is what mysticism is. We all have what personally suits and resonates with us, and what does not. It’s good to hear what others find suitable, and how they view what is, to them, unsuitable. I thank you for your well spoken honesty, and intelligent assessment my good friend.

NS (Not Suitable)

Yo-Ho! N(on)S(top), my friend! This latest reply was... large?... long?... but as usual, fulfilling for thought purposes. Let's see if I can do your reply any justice.

Again, I'll shall address with the most pertinent first -

NS: I agree that the horror of white flour is to be absolutely avoided. I can’t even imagine my eating white bread it has been so long since the Marine Corps forced me to swallow it along with the rest of its crap.

I'm not quite as vehemently opposed to white flour as you are, sir, but perhaps i should be. but when it comes to a freshly baked biscuit, lathered in a nice, rich butter/canola oil combo, with maybe a smidgen of blackberry jam on top... well, i will imbibe and imbibe with much gusto!

Marine Corps! Semper Fi, dude... semper fi. No, i was not a marine but rather a 'squid' as some of your co-horts aboard the U.S.S. Coral Sea (CVA 43) were apt to call we boys in blue. I served my country honorably from 1965 until 1969... some 3 years, 11 months and 13 days (if memory serves me correctly). Entering as a raw recruit, doing the boot camp drill in San Diego, I departed company from the U.S. Navy as honorably serving E-2, thank you! Not having any interest at all in even pondering making the Navy a full-time career, I chose to remain what was so generously given to me after boot camp - two stripes on my shoulder which I wore for nearly 4 years... causing a wee bit of consternation with my Chief aboard the carrier some 6 months or so left of my service. He called me into his office one evening and informed me what i was already well aware of - "you are still an E-2 and you've been in the Navy for 3 and a half years... " his voice trailing off, eyes staring into mine... "Yes, Chief... I know that..." my voice trailing off, more than likely in a different direction than his. "He continued: "I've done some research and found you are one of the oldest E2's in the Navy that hasn't been busted in rank... one other in our records is older... and he was busted." "Thanks Chief... I'll keep that in mind."

Some good memories along with the not-so-good. I'm sure you had your own memories that were like that.

”Whatever is concerned with time is mortal.” (Eckhart)

Certainly. We mortals time ourselves down to the 1,000ths of the second, so good we are with time. We will spend enormous amounts of money to wear a time piece. We have only so much time that I reckon spending small fortunes in reminding ourselves of time has some reasoning that is a bit out of range of my understanding. Time marches on... my friend... marches on with jackboots at times and other times it gently 'pads' its way so as to not disturb the calm.

NS: You appear to take yourself as primarily a human creature, with a something spiritual hidden within you. I OTOH, take myself to be pure spirit, whilst unreal dreams play across a mind’s screen.

"You can't judge a book by looking at it's cover" - Bo Diddly

All of us have the Spirit within. Some of us may hide it, while others may flaunt it... and most are unaware. But my own spirituality is not hidden nor is it hiding from me. I contact it regularly...

However! when you state "I take myself to be pure spirit"... I stop. I wonder... this word 'take'... what does he mean exactly? Take without asking? Take as applying energy to remove from where it was at ? Why expend energy taking something that is already 'here'? Surely pure spirit cannot be taken anywhere. There is nowhere spirit can go that it isn't there to begin with. Who is this taker that is taking spirit? Is there such an entity that can take spirit and ... what?

NS: "...whilst unreal dreams play across a mind’s screen."

Who or what it this that projects these dreams across mind, surreptitiously luring that mind to do things that really aren't there..?

NS: I take your comments to implicate, what is called in philosophy (sans aspersions), ‘naïve materialism,’ or at best an ‘empiricism.’

I had to read the paragraph this came from several times. I am unable to converse with you in strict philosophical terms simply because I don't know a damn thing about the entire subject to have anything to say about 'naive materialism', 'empiricism' or 'idealism' without having to go to the dictionary and get a brief description on what each of these 'schools' are opining. By doing just that, I could not help but notice the variances that have sprung up thru the ages regarding differing notions as to philosophical school A and philosophical school B etc, etc... all these different schools of thought and opinions give me a headache trying to figure them all out, I'm very sorry to say, amigo.

I'm really quite a simple man that has given many things a lot of thought and philosophical differences are not one of them. I only recently, last year some time, found out that I am autodidact, which was such a peculiar word for me but it's probably the closest it comes to the direction I have taken most of my life. I was a college drop out after about a year and a half. I was in an English class, summer school, and the professor wanted reports written up for grade purposes. He put a list of suggestions on the board and added we could pick our own topic if we so desired. Having had a little taste of yoga, i thought that would make a good report. I went to the college library and searched out books on yoga and one reference was to a book "The Yogas and Other Works" by Vivekananda. That one book so overwhelmed me that I read that book as if I was opening a door that had been long shut and locked that I never knew it existed until I began reading it. I lived with that book everyday and was so exhilarated I dropped out of college and shortly after hit the road for an extended sojourn with SooZen by my side. My life had grown at least a yard higher and a yard longer than what it was.

Enough about me... sorry. I do want to comment on this -

NS: Kant will tell you that ‘the world’ may not in fact exist at all. Mind, body, world, (like the gods) are ultimately based on faith, not experience. Since no one has ever intuited a world outside of their mind’s conception of one.

Approaching this carefully, should one believe Kant because he is saying this or should one trust Kant and preach this themselves... or should one possibly try and comprehend fully what it is Kant is attempting to explain? Was it Kant or was it you that put in the words, 'may not' regarding the world's existence?

"Since no one has ever intuited a world outside of their own mind's conception of one"... is a challenging mindgame that has no answer within mind much like "Do you remember not being?"

That being said that one quote and my quote are both totally reliant upon 'this world' to say them. If it wasn't for 'this world' who would say these things and to whom? Would NS know about Kant... about 'idealism' or any other bits of knowledge we live with if it weren't for 'this world'?

”It is clear that no proofs drawn from the empirical consideration of the world can be conceived which could assure us with absolute certainty of the world’s existence.” (Edmund Husserl, father of modern Phenomenology)

... other than reading this quotation which is occurring now in this worldly existence. Where else would I be reading this ?

NS: But, I don’t, won’t, and can’t, do ‘faith’ in order to fake Truth.

Sounds to me your forcing this upon yourself with the determined attitude of "don't - won't - can't" rather than an attitude of relaxation, ease and 'que sera sera'...

NS: So, I hold to the one direct experience that is impossible to doubt (i.e. ‘I Am’), and doubt all else. So, you see, I have my small portion of certitude, but without the shaky crutch of faith. True, it is not much in appearance to hold on to, this little, ‘I Am,’ but I am a man easily contented.

You are absolutely without a shadow of any hu'man doubt or question, your are "I am"... unequivocally? Is this 'I' you that 'am' or perhaps this 'I' is a drop in the 'We' ocean, confronting waves of 'we' that cause withdrawal into this 'I am' you believe to be?

... your contentedness is a true treasure, my friend... a gift long paid for by learning.

NS: Your next step apparently is to “create that which you need.”

Do I detect a slice of sarcasm here...? Even god created ...presumably what was needed, yes? Creation should be viewed as desirable, Not Stale. Was it not Aristotle himself who created the subject, 'metaphysics' ? Was it not that rascal, Guru Nanak Dev,who created, i.e. founded Sikhism? Creation is a needful effort by mankind to express the Divine within... so joyous and blissful it is.

NS: But, if I did that, whatever “truths” I then held I would know full well to have been ‘made up.’ Not a very satisfying bread, that.

Truth can never be 'made up', no matter who the baker is. Truth is not a tangible item on display for all to oooh and ahhh over, wishing they could have some. That is the satisfaction of Truth... "that which neither comes nor goes, never changes, and depends upon nothing else in order to exist,” forever providing nourishment for those who wish to partake.

NS: Even modern physics makes particle mush of the world you take so naively at human face value.

You must mean the String Theory..? Theories. I've taken that word and divided it into two - The Ories. To me, theories are but 'ories'... this one or that one or perhaps the one over there... or even the next one. Too many or's and not enough agreement on any one in particular, which makes none satisfying (!)... Yes, I do take this world as it is. But by saying that, please don't judge that is all I presume. It's a long thought out process that this reply will pass on, but there is, as I'm sure you'll agree, much more than meets the naked eye. Plenty more. Thru the complex mind many of those 'things' are being unraveled to allow the light of knowledge shine upon them for our insatiable need for knowing.

NS: I would say that you have it backwards.
’Muhammad said: “Who knows his true Self, knows his Lord.”’ (Islamic Hadith)
or
”Selfhood, as such, is Spirit.” (Schelling, philosopher)

I may, indeed, have it backwards... putting god before self, but as you've quoted, god and self are one and the same. is there a backward self or a backward god that brings confusion?

... as I wind down from this long, long answer to your wonderful reply, I reserve the least important until last...

NS: You should note that I recommended rooting out ‘Negative’ emotions as one might root out unwanted ‘weeds’ from a garden, not all emotion. (If this is a good practice for a patch of dirt, how much more so for our living psyche?)

Duly noted, my friend... duly noted. However, being an ardent gardener, you don't keep pulling weeds out of the garden without having to (eventually) realize that there are alternatives to such laborious tasks, heavy mulching being the first followed by feeding the soil with good and rich nutrients that will not be fertile grounds for weeds which thrive on poor soils. As you also asked, "If this is a good practice for a patch of dirt, how much more so for our living psyche?" To which I would respond, absolutely... find out within where these negative emotions arise and pull them out by the roots... the heart of the negative emotion. By avoiding a relationship with one's negativity, one really never gets to know that negativity and consequently behaves irrationally when it pops it's ugly head up... over and over again.

Thank you, kindly, N(ame) S(hifter) for your patience and continuing efforts at communicating with this old fool. I, quite frankly, enjoy it.

btw: what grade level did you teach?

Hi M(erry) T(iler),
Apologies for running on too long. If I err, and do it again, simply stop reading at the appropriate point. That way I’ll never be too lengthy with you ever again.

Yes, I recall your earlier mention of your ‘Squididness.’ I’ve served with many of them, and (nearly) always thought them to be fine fellows. I liked their chow better too. I salute your E-2, as I was discharged as an E-1; my m.o.s. being ‘brig rat.’ You were never busted, so, I guess I’ve not run into you at the Long Beach, Diego, or Portsmouth (Naval base) brigs (some few of my old alma maters), whilst enjoying your organization’s fine culinary, and confinement, arts.

MT: "You can't judge a book by looking at it's cover" - Bo Diddly

NS: No, ‘but you can judge its price.’ – NS

MT: But my own spirituality is not hidden nor is it hiding from me. I contact it regularly.

NS: Good to hear. I hope there will come a day when it is no longer an “it” for visitation for you, but rather a fulltime “myself.” When that day comes, you will wonder what all the fuss about being a “hu-man.”

MT: I wonder... this word 'take'... what does he mean exactly? Take without asking?

NS: Words, as you know, often have several meanings, leaving us to rely upon contextual evaluation. Which, I’ll grant you, is not always revealing. My usage here is, ‘to understand, to interpret.’ It would be common to the usage in ‘mistake,’-- ‘to understand wrongly.’

MT: Who or what it this that projects these dreams across mind, surreptitiously luring that mind to do things that really aren't there..?

NS: ‘Dreams’ are simply thoughts. Minds have thoughts, like milk cows have milk. No need to “lure surreptitiously” milk into milk cows.

MT: all these different schools of thought and opinions give me a headache trying to figure them all out, I'm very sorry to say, amigo.

NS: No, it is I who owe the apology. I did not intend to force a homework assignment on you, my friend. Nor, especially, to cause a ‘headache.’ Your earlier astonished critique of my philosophic views as if they were aberrant imaginings, seemed to invite my placing them, and your own position, in their scholarly context. Certainly, I can hold unusual views, but I’m never original. ‘Idealism’ (in the west) goes back to Mr. Plato himself, and ‘Naïve Materialism’ doubtless pre-dates humanity.

I confess to an undergrad degree in philosophy (its content mostly forgotten), but I had no wish to ‘lay a trip,’ I swear. I also have a BA in Criminal Justice (Magna Cum), and an MA in Gerontology, and years of obscure (never adding up to any formal degree) accredited college courses (e.g. real estate, machine shop, insurance, embalming). Why so much schooling? Simple: I hated to work. I was always preparing to work, but rarely sticking to anything. I stick to retirement like a pro, though.

I too was a big fan of Vivekananda, and can well understand your fascination. We used to belong to his ( & Yogananda’s) organization in L.A.; studying yoga there. They even had classes for my then very young daughter. Fine times of innocence for us all. Did you know that V. was an Advaitist, i.e. holding all those weird ‘world denying’ ideas that puzzle you so much?

MT: should one believe Kant because he is saying this or should one trust Kant and preach this themselves... or should one possibly try and comprehend fully what it is Kant is attempting to explain? Was it Kant or was it you that put in the words, 'may not' regarding the world's existence?

NS: Kant’s words. The fun/work of philosophy is to try to “comprehend fully” the philosopher’s argument, and to find its holes. “Preachers” are in another business entirely.

MT: If it wasn't for 'this world' who would say these things and to whom?

NS: No one speaks to another in your dreams? In a novel, … a movie? At this moment, these words are inside your head. Your computer screen is inside your head. Until you perceive, and cognize (what you perceive) inside your head, there are no words, or screen, before you. So, it isn’t the screen ‘out there’ that you are directly experiencing, but rather the internal-conceptual image of an original that you “conceive” of as being “out there.” ‘Perceptions’ too are ‘your’ nerves sending electrical impulses to your brain. Not external objects of light, sound, taste, etc., but nerves being interpreted as these objects, and then projected ‘in thought’ as being located outside of where they are experienced.

MT: Is this 'I' you that 'am' or perhaps this 'I' is a drop in the 'We' ocean, confronting waves of 'we'

NS: “We” is an ‘external object.’ IOW, ‘my’ mental construct, and a thing capable of being doubted as independently existent. But, ‘I’ OTOH, am neither perceived, nor conceived, and a presence that is impossible to remove.

RE:NS: Your next step apparently is to “create that which you need.”
MT: Do I detect a slice of sarcasm here...?

NS: Not at all. I was quoting your recommendation that I should do just that. Did I misread you?

MT: Creation is a needful effort by mankind to express the Divine within.

NS: Not true. This ‘I Am’ is a directly experienced (sans sensation, or conception) presence that requires no effort (mental or physical).

MT: I may, indeed, have it backwards... putting god before self, but as you've quoted, god and self are one and the same. is there a backward self or a backward god that brings confusion?

NS: Why I stress that order is because “God” remains a mere conceptual object until we identify with our pure “I Am” experience, and know God as our Self. ”Only God knows God.” So, first you must know the Atman (Self) to realize that “Atman is Brahman.” The realized mystic does not worship God. They become God, not by thinking of a god, but by finding out who they actually are first.

MT: By avoiding a relationship with one's negativity, one really never gets to know that negativity and consequently behaves irrationally when it pops it's ugly head up... over and over again.

NS: Not really. The person who weeds constantly is very familiar with weeds, but never allows them to stay long enough to do any damage to their peace of mind. A contented and peaceful person is the best prepared person for adversity. I’ve worked in mental health, and seen that the “troubled” are also the most vulnerable to further psychic trauma.

MT: Thank you, kindly, N(ame) S(hifter) for your patience and continuing efforts at communicating with this old fool. I, quite frankly, enjoy it.

NS: You are many things, Cecil, but never do I see you as a “fool.” I find you a very real pleasure, and can only hope that you will forgive me my contrary ways so that I may continue to enjoy you. Please trust me in this, I am never intentionally be “sarcastic” with you. Just poor attempts at wit.

MT: btw: what grade level did you teach?

NS: I did not teach a great deal, only a few years in total. Besides, occasional public school sub-ing at all grades, I only taught as regular staff in post-secondary education. Specifically, a medical school in Tampa, a local junior college here in TN, and an ‘Upward Bound’ college prep school. I spent many more years as a salesman, and my teaching method always came off as a sales seminar. I never took any courses in teaching, and did quickly bore of the constant repetition that teaching demands. I don’t recommend it. Being a student is my preference, but the pay is rotten.

NS (Needs Studying)

NS: No one speaks to another in your dreams? In a novel, … a movie? At this moment, these words are inside your head. Your computer screen is inside your head. Until you perceive, and cognize (what you perceive) inside your head, there are no words, or screen, before you. So, it isn’t the screen ‘out there’ that you are directly experiencing, but rather the internal-conceptual image of an original that you “conceive” of as being “out there.” ‘Perceptions’ too are ‘your’ nerves sending electrical impulses to your brain. Not external objects of light, sound, taste, etc., but nerves being interpreted as these objects, and then projected ‘in thought’ as being located outside of where they are experienced.

Wow. Time to trash the idea that I was a simple hu'man being trying my darnedest to make it thru life as best as I could. What's wrong with somebody like me? I mean, I've even thought about my body is not real but an assemblage of atoms. I've actually seen where nobody and nothing touches any other body or thing... there is always a certain distance between "my" physicality and any other physicality. All these scientific discoveries, nothing but electrical impulses... no light (no Light), no sound, no taste, no nothing... pure nada... and I want to live? you gotta be kidding? how did a real live, thinking hu'man being become the first of his/her kind to reach the conclusion that they really don't exist and they are nothing, absolutely nothing but an electrical impulse pulsating in a vacuum for the sake of some maniacal ego-engorged entity who had nothing better to do but create electrical impulses for 'it's own amusement... and who itself is nothing more than pulsating impulses. Amazing what the mind is able to conjure when it has enough time on it's hands. The theory of evolution..? forgeddaboutit! electrical impulses. Capitalism? fordeddaboutit! electrical impulses. Thanking God? forgeddaaboutit! just electrical impulses. The Constitution of the U.S. ? You got it - electrical impulses! It's so obvious even a child could grasp that concept and make it the Absolute Truth... errr... the Absolute Electrical Impulse. Certainly. My pain, my joy, my desires, my attitude and my aspirations... my debts and my treasures. my every thing is nothing but electrical impulses. It's so easy... so easy to make everything, including Einstein's E=mc2... an electrical impulse. We can even surmise that electrical impulses are nothing but electrical impulses. How could it be anything else when everything is electrical impulse?

NS: I hope there will come a day when it is no longer an “it” for visitation for you, but rather a fulltime “myself.” When that day comes, you will wonder what all the fuss about being a “hu-man.”

Who is this 'myself' you speak of? Another electrical impulse?

I am hu'man... a hu'man being. Whatever door opens when my time to leave this shell called 'cecil' will have to wait until this soul bids farewell to this ego self which is unable to carry 'me' in this temporal hu'man form, but until that time arrives, I hope I will be as hu'man as 'my' potentiality will allow. I have no problem with this hu'manity... I am not in any stampede to rush over the cliff to put to rest my hu/manness. This mortal life is short. You know that. What is on the otherside will be there whether I become a "fulltime myself" or not.

NS: No, ‘but you can judge its price.’ – NS

Excellent.

NS: I stick to retirement like a pro, though.

Excellent.

NS: Please trust me in this, I am never intentionally be “sarcastic” with you. Just poor attempts at wit.

I've never found your wit to be poor, by any means. I've found your wit to be rich and well placed.

MT: By avoiding a relationship with one's negativity, one really never gets to know that negativity and consequently behaves irrationally when it pops it's ugly head up... over and over again.

I'm repeating 'myself'... like a friendly echo careening off a granite-faced cliff in an untouched valley in an undiscovered area somewhere in the Amazonian jungle in 1938.

NS: Being a student is my preference, but the pay is rotten.

What one must do to fulfill the passion for knowledge transcends any monetary value.

take care, my friend... take care.