Studio8 - Uniting the Arts

Hi Hester,
HP: if the bottom line is balance, and we are out of balance then that is what we protest! We can all feel it! The imbalance.

NS: What we feel is ‘our perception of’ an imbalance, or a balance. Which may, or may not, be an actual (im)balance. A pendulum, like nature herself, oscillates between extremes. Is its proper position to be at rest at the mid-point? Would the ideal position for your breath, for example, be neither inhalation nor exhalation, but fixed and unmoving between these two radical extremes?

HP: I would think Universal Healthcare would be an easy start.

NS: At last, something we three can all agree on.
It certainly does not appear likely in the near, or distant, future, here in the US.


Hey M(ajor)T(remor),
MT: Those who follow the signs of health measure good health as one which is in balance, i.e. when one's own body is imbalanced (dis-eased) ill health follows. (an ancient Chinese secret..!) Correct the imbalance once it's recognized and balance returns bringing with it a sense of well-being:

NS: Which used to be the medical justification for the practice of ‘blood letting.’ You’ve got to get those three ‘humors’ back in balance. We can all define ‘balance’ well enough, but as to ‘what’ needs to be balanced, and ‘how’ that is to be achieved, ah…there’s the rub.

MT: How do we correct an obvious imbalance within our society?

NS: What appears “obvious” to you, may not be so obvious to others; if it even exists at all. You may say the political right is wrong, and throws society out of balance because of it. But, the political right claims it is the left that is causing the imbalance. The ‘Tea Party’ says that both the left & right are spending too much, thus ‘obviously’ putting it all out of balance.

Personally, I think that they are all standing way too close to events in order to see whether or not an actual imbalance is present or not. Historical perspective is, as always, sadly lacking.

MT: There shouldn't be any doubt that the collective 'we', whether that be on a national or international level, is out of balance which causes many of our social and political (international) problems/ills.

NS: There should always be "doubt" given to our perceptions, lest our minds become unbalanced due to a lack of objectivity. Suicide bombers too, see things grossly out of (their perceived) balance—calling for immediate and radical action to put things ‘right.’ Of this clear and “obvious” fact they harbor “no doubt.”

MT: Health providers, i.e. doctors, nurses other specialists in the health field, would agree that stress is one of the greatest underlying causes of illness (dis-ease)

NS: Actually, it isn’t “stress,” but rather its extremes relative to its perceived discomfort. Not enough stress can cause as much illness, and even shorten one’s lifespan, as can too much. There is an ideal stress level, but it is not a constant for all individual human variations.

MT: stress comes about when we are out of balance, and when we are out of balance stress continues increasing until that source of stress is reduced until it is eliminated.

NS: The body works to achieve a homeostatic balance, while being barraged by unbalancing stimuli. Introduce too much sugar into the blood, and the body pumps in too much counteractive insulin, which then causes the body to counter the excess loading of insulin. IOW, the system is in a constant flux, much like that pendulum I mentioned. The ‘ideal’ state is a state of movement between extremes. Perfect, fixed, steady, balanced, homeostasis, is called ‘death.’ ‘Life’ is a much more actively unstable sort of thing, which never seems to get it just right. The philosophic historian, Arnold Toynbee, once made the case that whenever a civilization adapted too well to its environment…it ceased to grow, and soon died.

MT: There is a great deal of imbalance in the world.

NS: I know. As there always has been. Isn’t it wonderful!
NS (Never Stable)

NS, NS, NS... my friend. Never Static may be the rule of Life, however Life exists freely enough and provides all that life needs to live. When this simple formula is understood, we do not simply die from lack of yin/yang-ness, but rather become more intune to the cyclical nature of Nature itself. Health affords us focus which in turn allows us to fully grasp this duality of life, the Wheel, which continues turning with or without us. Once we calm ourselves from our perceptions that unleash the torrents of doubt, confusion and desire which derails us, bringing that dis-ease into play, that is when imbalance turns on. Is imbalance a natural condition, you may ask... or more likely answer with an affirmative. Dis-ease is only a signal to us that something is out of kilter, and that something is within us, our nature but not Nature itself. (I hear that mystic mind of yours saying there is but one nature and we are part of that one nature so you cannot split nature into a personal nature and the Nature all around us because it is all one). So is this discussion all one and within it there are differing opinions which may bring either deeper thinking on the subject or disgruntlement about the opposing view, which is akin to dis-ease. Again, dis-ease being a warning signal from/by Nature that imbalance is in need of re-balancing.

I'm off to take Nathan to the video store and Soo and I will stock up the pantry for another weeks worth of provisions. Is there anything I could pick up for you NS, and save yourself a trip to Walmart, TN?

Hello MT,
MT: Is there anything I could pick up for you NS, and save yourself a trip to Walmart, TN?

NS: Nice of you to inquire. But no, I am well supplied in all regards.
I wanted to thank you for reminding me of that Depp movie (forget its name this senior moment). I saw it last week, and recalled very little of it from before. Terrific! My wife said, “’Good boy Buddy,’ and now this! You have very strange friends.” My life has always been blessed with wonderfully strange friends. I can’t imagine what must attract such good fortune. Say ‘hi’ to Nathan from TN's phar right, for me.

MT: Never Static may be the rule of Life, however Life exists freely enough and provides all that life needs to live.

NS: Indeed, it does. Which is my very point in this discussion, i.e. that “imbalances” are mostly cast within the eye that conceives them. Relax, my friend, all is well, and nothing is a-Miss nor ever Mrs. its intended target.

MT: Dis-ease is only a signal to us that something is out of kilter,

NS: No, even “disease” has its proper place, and part to play, in life. Your error lies in taking too small a perspective. See late autumn by itself, and everything appears to be dying…surely, “something must be out of kilter.” But, take the entire year into your view, and you’ll discover a larger truth that gives the lie to shortsighted conclusions.

MT: we do not simply die from lack of yin/yang-ness, but rather become more intune to the cyclical nature of Nature itself.

NS: “We” are not (as creatures) things apart from nature, such that we can make ourselves get in, or out of, step with nature’s inexorable stepping. We ARE nature’s steps, whether we take yourself to be such, or not. The river of life flows, and all that lives or dies must flow on with/as it. The Tao, like the ‘will of God,’ is easy to know…it is what happens.

” The life of things passes by like a galloping horse. Every movement brings a change, and every hour makes a difference. What is one to do or what is one not to do? Indeed everything will take its own course.” (Chuang-tze)

MT: doubt, confusion and desire which derails us, bringing that dis-ease into play

NS: The “doubt” I am speaking of is that which an open, and wise, mind applies to its own conclusions. In Zen there is the concept of “Spiritual doubt,” encouraged by koans and introspection. Yes, it can be disruptive, dis-easing, and unsettling, for the spiritual seeker who conceived that he had some reliable answers to lean upon. But that is how illusions are dispelled—by disillusion after disillusion, until you are deluded no more.

”He who knows that he is under a delusion is not greatly deluded.” (Chuang-tze)

MT: Health affords us focus

NS: No less than does illness, and even impending death, improves our focus on what really matters in life, and causes us to seek beyond its duality of pleasure-pain that we may discover That which transcends nature itself. The creature is only the husk, for what immaterially lies within, and is far more precious.

”The sage wears a coarse cloth on top and carries jade within his bosom.” (‘Tao Te Ching’ #70)

Ahhh, N(imble) S(prite)... you have answered as I expected, amigo... except for the movie references... caught me by surprise. It's been awhile since those two flicks (old Navy jargon) were recommended: Depp in 'Public Enemy' and that underground classic with Nicolas Hope - 'Bad Boy Bubba'... yes, strange movie is not quite the persuasion to see that one. I tried several different adjectives urging my movie freak oldest so to 'watch this movie!' but he always assured me it was on his Netflicks queue ... oddly never reaching the top. One day I began a search of reviews for 'Bad Boy....' and came up with a review by Rotten Tomatoes who positively without any hestitation to 'see this movie!' I sent #1 son a link to that and he responded within the same day that Rotten Tomatoes was a trustworthy reviewer (and I wasn't???) enough so that he quickly order the movie. He watched it once with his wife and one more time alone... loved it! As he told his old decrepit dad, "I really enjoy strange, offbeat, weird movies and this really was all that.." Thanks, son.

An old friend insisted I watch that movie and even furnished a DVD of it to make sure I did watch it. Weird guy... how he even knew about it I've never found out to this day.

Back to Depp... I really enjoyed the overall aura of the movie and thought the cinemaphotography and the portrayal of the times was extremely authentic looking.. so much so that I felt I was right there with all the characters playing their parts so well that the movie flowed flawlessly... so well that there was nothing to bitch about.

Okay, okay.... and now back to why I was not surprised by your answer(s) .

Re: Balance and dis-ease. When one is dis-eased, feeling rotten, on the verge of hopelessness where anything is better than being so ill that death looks like an interesting cure from it all... that person's last concern is pulling down from the old dusty shelves a worn copy of the 'Complete Philosophical Works of Mankind' and page thru in a search for some mystical reasoning why that god-awful sickness is but a natural occurrence that is the far right swing of some imagined pendulum, while meanwhile fighting off the urge to vomit from intense nausea rising like a full moon's tide against the shores of an empty belly that will hold no nourishment.

Our biology demands healing first... and then a return to the world of reason and logic with an eased physic that enjoys life and all that it offers. But as long as one is deathly ill and unable to concentrate, filled with worry that death is sitting right next to them patiently twiddling it's cracked and calloused thumbs in dire need of nail clipping, waiting to remove life from the body on the edge of existence, philosophy, religions, eroticism or comic books hold no interest until that body is cured of it's ailment. It is not the body that creates these mind plays and it is not the body who is concerned with them... body is a selfish entity with a will to survive that will do so until it's final breath.

And in conclusion to my (un) usually long diatribe , let me add that what I have reported to you, N(early) S(entient), this urgency to find a cure for dis-ease applies to society as well. Society can sit and listen to reasons for their unemployment or their upcoming loss of housing, they can sit and listen to why their insurance will no longer cover their illness or any number of other things, but deep down within, society is worried about one thing... getting well. To Hell with any b.s. that does nothing to cure the ills of society. Words can only do so much and go so far before they are just faint echoes ricocheting off the walls of complacency with n'er an ear to listen.... until that ear is cured.

Nap time, amigo... it's been a long sunny day.

Greetings M(ust-be)T(elepathic),
MT: you have answered as I expected,

NS: Should I apologize for being so predictable, or simply step back and let you continue our dialogue for us?
OTOH, my own poor prescience is constantly amazed by your startling announcements, and never can guess what astonishing declaration you’ll cough up next.
[Excuse me, I have to go ‘hang’ the laundry (since there are no socialists ready at hand)]

”After the ecstasy, the laundry.” (famous Zen saying)

I was referring to Depp’s ‘Dead Man.’ I’ve yet to catch ‘Public Enemy’ (a socialist story about corporations, presumably). Sorry to hear your flick (old Marine jargon) creds are so low with #1 son. Don’t take it personally, parental taste credibility rarely gets high marks.

MT: healing first... and then a return to the world of reason and logic … applies to society as well.

NS: This explains the irrationalities of blaming: malevolent gods, corporations, or Martians, for one’s sufferings. Conversely, it explains irrational hopes for salvation from: benevolent gods, Obama, or Sara Palin.

MT: To Hell with any b.s. that does nothing to cure the ills of society. Words can only do so much and go so far

NS: The “ills of society,” along with their nostrums, vary along 180 degrees of perceptual bias. You, the neo-conservative, the Moslem radical, and every Maoist, all agree that there are fundamental “ills” requiring immediate and radical action. Not only do you all agree on that point, but also that: “words, philosophy, books (i.e. knowledge), and reasoning,” are all “b.s.” that can do “nothing to cure the ills of society.” That it is now time for irrational, compulsive, action.

I would counter that it is exactly when things appear at their worst, individually or collectively, when: philosophy, history, medical science, and thoughtful reason are most needed. Wisdom is all about “cures.” Any ignorant beast can accede to irrational emotion, and reap the predictable results it brings. What surprises me is that You see that approach, not only as being defensible, but preferable.

MT: It is not the body that creates these mind plays and it is not the body who is concerned with them... body is a selfish entity with a will to survive

NS: Which may explain evolution’s foresight in placing a head on the body’s shoulders, not to confound survival, but rather to achieve it.

NS (Needn’t Survive)

Caught me early today, N(one) S(urprised)... no immediate tasks awaiting my attention so I thought I'd shoot off a reply while in park.

NS: I’ve yet to catch ‘Public Enemy’ (a socialist story about corporations, presumably).

and you claim "poor prescience"... mercy. next thing you'll imagine is Dillinger being shot to death, no doubt..?

"Dead Man'.. now that was a good choice to pick from. From your last post I understood your better half was somewhat 'iffy' about this movie..? Weird stuff from weird friends...? It is a classic I'm sure you'll agree, eh? (love that Canuck-speak)

NS: ... constantly amazed by your startling announcements, and never can guess what astonishing declaration you’ll cough up next.

N(ot) S(tartling) as much as channeled opinions I happen upon while I am in tune to the public voice. I often speak for the masses rather than selfishly speak purely my own mind. I find this an interesting balance that finds it's middle ground more often than not. No need to elaborate on the middle ground with some as tuned in to balance as you are, my friend... only to say that middle ground is fertile soil for the Middle Earth wherein dwells hobbits and such, re: Tolkien.

... besides a good cough clears the lungs and air passages quite well.

”After the ecstasy, the laundry.” (famous Zen saying)

Bravo! Akin to "after the illness, the smile." N(ot) S(o) famous but following the steps in a Zen-like manner...

NS: This explains the irrationalities of blaming: malevolent gods, corporations, or Martians, for one’s sufferings. Conversely, it explains irrational hopes for salvation from: benevolent gods, Obama, or Sara Palin.

Irrationalities...? you, my friend, certainly are N(ot) S(erious) with your usage of that word. That implies a certain imbalance with rationality. Correct (heal) the irrationality with the proper 'medicine' and rationality will be restored. A hu'man's ability to speak out against what they feel is injustice or conversely praise justice shows how 'we' express that which distresses and elates the species as only we know how to do. Even the words you have written above show your own expression and the opinion you have with regards to irrationality... which many may argue is an 'irrational' position which separates you from accepting a side. (make it clear, amigo, it is not Cecil who argues this position... merely a recognition of the polarization of thinking which these positions take up).

Re: MT: To Hell with any b.s. that does nothing to cure the ills of society. Words can only do so much and go so far..

I believe you have taken this line a wee bit out of context as a defensive posturing to protect something that is very dear to you.

I am writing within the entire paragraph how I see the general population responding to ineffective cures to eliminate the very real perceptions of our social ills which include many things and people (may) have contributed to in creating the current mess.

The people simply are looking for someone to lead them out of the darkness that has overshadowed so many of their lives. They are unable to do it alone... like children who are hungry they long for someone to feed them. When the words of a learned person tries to bring comfort to them in a language fit for the wise rather than the uneducated, these same people do not want to hear about philosophical reasonings or religious teachings based upon acceptance while their stomachs growl with hunger and their backs are sore from sleeping in dark and dirty alleyways. Does a treasured artwork anything the poor can cook up for their children? Does the words of a mystic bring the necessary comfort to the cold and weary souls who dream of a hot bowl of soup?

As I wrote, amigo, "Words can only do so much and go so far before they are just faint echoes ricocheting off the walls of complacency with n'er an ear to listen.... until that ear is cured."

Compassion, the highest quality of Love, is what is necessary, and always has been, but even more so in these troubling times we are experiencing... some more that others, of course, but we are all connected and thru this connection we fail as hu'mans to have compassion towards the less-fortunate amongst us.

Those who have forsaken the unfortunate, forsake themselves. And that is a serious illness within our society, where the accumulation of wealth far exceeds the ability to spend that wealth in a lifetime. There is tremendous wealth being horded while so many do without and that is senseless and unnecessary.

Where is the religious person to change this dead-end course? Where is the compassionate philosophy that people understand thru example? Where is science that discovers more and more about Earth and the planets above when it comes to understanding the hunger and homelessness of hu'manity? Where is government when social ills are running rampant in the streets while it spends fortunes on supporting financial institutions that bank the wealth of so few? Where is the Defense of a country who squanders it's monies on foreign soil while the defense of simple prosperity of the country goes unheeded?

______

Well, my friend, the clock on the wall says that's all... my time is up for now... time for me to get up off this chair and do something different for a change.

Take care, N(imbus) S(pirit)...

Hi M(aligned)T(urpitude),
MT: I understood your better half was somewhat 'iffy' about this movie..? Weird stuff from weird friends...? It is a classic I'm sure you'll agree, eh?

NS: I do, as does she. “Weird” is not necessarily pejorative. We both enjoyed your two selections very much, not in spite of, but partially because of, its “weirdness.” For all my corrective efforts, my wife persists in holding you in high esteem from her several conversations with you in the past.

MT: channeled opinions I happen upon while I am in tune to the public voice. I often speak for the masses

NS: A great gift, I’m sure. Those of us, less gifted with uniquely tuned ears, to the vox populi, are forced to resort to actual thoughts of our own. Though, I must admit to a preference for a large mind over that of oversized ears. I marvel at how you are able to discriminate from among that diverse cacophony only the public voice that is attune with your own. Or are they, much like this thread, the Only voices you are able to tune into?

MT: "after the illness, the smile."

NS: Always good to smile post pain, even better to ‘smile all the while.’ [NS (Now Singing) breaks into the song, ‘Put on a Happy Face.’]

MT: Irrationalities...? you, my friend, certainly are N(ot) S(erious) with your usage of that word. That implies a certain imbalance with rationality.

NS: Indeed, it does! Not “my usage,” but explicitly your very own. You denounce ‘reason (i.e. rationality), learning & wisdom’ when they are most called for. What is that but advocating the ‘non-rational’ = ‘irrational’? How else am I to take your words?

MT: I believe you have taken this line a wee bit out of context

NS: Not intended, nor do I share your counter contextual conclusion upon rereading.

MT: I see the general population responding to ineffective cures to eliminate the very real perceptions of our social ills which include many things and people

NS: Also “many” conflicting opinions as to what exactly those “ills” are (e.g. attempted public heath plan). Equally conflicted, are the many proposed solutions (e.g. a President Palin).

MT: They are unable to do it alone... like children who are hungry the long for someone to feed them. When the words of a learned person tries to bring comfort to them in a language fit for the wise rather than the uneducated

NS: Yes, the “words” I’ve offered here were theoretical, and intended for your enlarged ears, not to fill empty bellies or heads given over to emotion. I doubt that you and I would differ greatly on matters concerning a strong and effective social net of essential provisions for our fellow citizens. I too can feel compassion, and nowhere in this thread advanced any economic, or political, theory that did not keep the physical welfare of our society in mind.

Capitalism creates wealth better than any other economic system. The more wealth, the greater the capacity to provide care in real terms for those in need (see North Korea, or Cuba, for care without capitalism).

Please don’t confuse the engine with the transmission. One to provide the power, the other to put it to use. I give Cuba high marks in its intentions to provide for it all of its citizens, but a failing grade in its ability to create much of anything worth providing.

MT: …that is a serious illness within our society, where the accumulation of wealth far exceeds the ability to spend that wealth in a lifetime. There is tremendous wealth being horded while so many do without and that is senseless and unnecessary.

NS: Not true at all.
No one with real wealth is so stupid as to “hoard it.” That would be like trying to hoard ice in your yard during the summer. It wouldn’t take long for you to discover your mistake. Money has to be put to work, and watched, constantly. It has to run just to stay in place. There is no real option to opting out of the financial fracas, whether you want to invest or not. Money is not easy. Either turn it into useful capital to benefit others, or lose it. Capital + raw materials + labor + information = business = modern civilization. Even communism requires large accumulations of wealth.

The financially ignorant think that money is for “spending.” Do you recall the old parable about Hell being a well spread banquet table, but each person is forced to eat with utensils too long to reach their mouths; and so they starve & Heaven is the exact same setup, but they feed each other? That is the difference between those who take money as something to spend, and those who know money is to be saved and accumulated well beyond one’s personal needs, and invested in others. The latter are called ‘fat cats’ for a reason, they operate like they are in heaven.
Be well

Whoa!
You both present very good ideas here and I have enjoyed reading these latest posts.
I am financially ignorant I guess, but lately I've been managing to feel a little ahead of the game, not spending, saving up what I can, not really hoarding but looking out more for myself and not entrusting everything to the same crook.
Heh.
But it's about balance and I can agree that maybe some imbalance is necessary at all times to keep things going.
But the imbalance has to be balanced.
We've gone lopsided.
We need to come up a little right now.
Obama should just use his authority and pass single payor health care.
People need to get out there and fix up our bridges and infrastructure, there's plenty to do. Give people jobs to make our Country strong right here at home. I'd like that.
A little less imbalance right now would go a long way and most likely generate a bigger, more lasting profit too!
H

Hey Hester,
HP: I am financially ignorant I guess, but lately I've been managing to feel a little ahead of the game, not spending, saving up what I can,

NS: “Financially ignorant,” and “not spending, saving up,” are contradictory IMO. I see ‘saving,’ which means living ‘below’ one’s income as The key factor in making for ‘financial genius.’ I recall a time when both my wife and I were bringing in modest incomes, and got serious about putting our small savings to work. The 3 of us (she, me, and $) all brought in what we could for the family pot. In a few years, the largest contributor became #3, and we (1 & 2) both fell competitively well behind its share. Eventually, we two losers lost all heart in the race, and just quit working altogether, letting #3 support us by itself. I call #3 our ‘money tree.’ Anyone can grow one if they really, really want to.

HP: not really hoarding but looking out more for myself and not entrusting everything to the same crook.

NS: What “crook” is that?

HP: I can agree that maybe some imbalance is necessary at all times to keep things going. But the imbalance has to be balanced. We've gone lopsided.

NS: IF the government would stop trying to meddle with the natural forces, the imbalances would right themselves. I didn’t hear much about ‘imbalance’ when the credit bubble was in its full bloom of imbalance. Now, that the economy tries to achieve equilibrium by tightening the too loose screws, it’s perceived as a great wrong-ness.

If a family were to get into serious debt, by living the good life, how would you suspect that would have to be put back into balance? A. by getting deeper into debt to pay off earlier debts (present Gov approach)? Or B. by radically (and painfully) cutting down on their lifestyle until it falls below their income, so that they may pay off past debts and become fiscally solvent? Everyone hates option B, and the politicians know it. Option A, just means a postponement, and worse times down the road. Even with ‘A’ I hear plenty of complaints about a painful ‘imbalance.’

G'day, my mountain top friend! How went your day, N(aturally) S(ecretive)?

Phar Lepht had a pleasant, clear day until late this afternoon when clouds crept in from the west to cast a pale of sorts over the land.

Let's begin, if you will - in order of (semi)-importance,

NS: We both enjoyed your two selections very much, not in spite of, but partially because of, its “weirdness.” For all my corrective efforts, my wife persists in holding you in high esteem from her several conversations with you in the past.

Pleased, indeed, that my recommendations were enjoyed by not only yourself, N(icely) S(atiated), but your more beneficent half. Bless her and her impeccable taste, along with your own of course, sans the 'blessing' which I trust you'd find unnecessary if not unbelievable.

BUT! pray tell what did you mean by 'my wife persists in holding you in high esteem from her several conversations with you in the past' ? Have I conversed with her in some past life or perhaps a time more current..? Please explain, if you would be so kind.

NS: You denounce ‘reason (i.e. rationality), learning & wisdom’ when they are most called for. What is that but advocating the ‘non-rational’ = ‘irrational’? How else am I to take your words?

I'm such a denouncer! What will ever become of me and my negative ways?? Please take my words as you feel them before attempting to put logic to them... the two may seem unlikely companions but upon further inspection you may find the threads of truth working in a subtle harmony.

When reason and wisdom are most called for, the call often resonates as a shriek that grates at the nerves of the unsuspecting... which often erases the reasoning and the wisdom from again catching the attention of those who would most benefit. An unfortunate circumstance, but the loss of patience with those who have lost so much in the current situation must be understood and approached with honesty and compassion in order to dispel any doubt in the needy.

NS: A great gift, I’m sure. Those of us, less gifted with uniquely tuned ears, to the vox populi, are forced to resort to actual thoughts of our own.

This is indeed a gift and one that brings me great satisfaction the majority of times, but like all things there are times when what I hear I find quite troublesome. But I shan't go there at this time.

When you say: 'I marvel at how you are able to discriminate from among that diverse cacophony only the public voice that is attune with your own,' I will only reiterate what I wrote in the last paragraph.

But I do want to assure you that I have quite possibly a larger than most array of thoughts that have originated within moi, as difficult a concept you may find that to be... What you currently know about me is but a drop in the oceanic and boundless character to whom you are communicating with right at this moment.

NS: Or are they, much like this thread, the Only voices you are able to tune into?

You have an Englishman's sense of humour, which I rather enjoy.

NS: Also “many” conflicting opinions as to what exactly those “ills” are (e.g. attempted public heath plan). Equally conflicted, are the many proposed solutions (e.g. a President Palin).

That is why it is imperative for you to use your overwhelming intellectual prowess to spread the message to take this country out of it's imbalance... a sort of resetting the clock that has most a few minutes do to bad weather upsetting the power source. The National Confliction will not be able to withstand that which it needs the most - honesty. No lies. No deception. No cover-ups. Nothing but honesty. Do you believe? Do you want a better world for our citizens, all our citizens who call America theirs? I'm sure you do. Onward, Mystic Soldier! Into the mystic, as Van Morrison so valiantly sang... "into the mystic..."

NS: No one with real wealth is so stupid as to “hoard it.”

Does it take stupidity to hoard? Is that the secret of the woodpecker and the squirrel? Stupidity! I never would have guessed, my friend, not in a hundred years. :laugh:

I take it that your definition of 'real wealth' is not just a small fortune but an outlandish fortune that will well cloth, feed, nourish, educate and make comfortable in old age, one man's family and grandchildren and great-grandchildren and beyond...? That sounds like 'real wealth' to me. But I could very well be wrong.

When there are individuals who have created such an abundance of wealth so there is never, ever any possibility that money will ever be a shortage in any conceivable way, I would say, "Congratulations!" to that individual. I would also ask that same individual,"How much money do you need to keep you happy,?" Not that it is up to me or them or the government to say how much money anyone needs or wants in a free society, but just out of pure curiosity I would like to know the answer to that question directed towards someone with 'real wealth', i.e. material riches.

I had an uncle who became a millionaire in the tool and die business many years ago. He had all the material wealth one could want (without being overly greedy! ) He lived a good life, He also worked everyday running his business even when in his 70's and 80's... a workaholic. He was well-paid for all his efforts, nobody would deny that. However his family, who had material wealth, saw little of the man, so busy was he working and working... his business his love, his employees his family, more than his own family. He made up for his not being 'there' with this true family by gifting them with wonderfully expensive gifts... a substitute for his love which he didn't have time for ... or didn't make time for. His wife (my mother's younger sister) grew ill and died leaving him pretty much alone despite his business now as the reality of her loss left him empty... without any real meaning. His children were grown up and married, having their own children and lives to live. He died some 2, maybe 3 years after his wife. All the money he had earned was distributed to each of his three children. This really wonderful hu'man being was a wealthy man... a man who worked every day of his healthy life like a servant to his business, with generous financial rewards. What is that biblical passage - " Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." I'm not convinced if there truly is a Heaven that my uncle would not be there with that great smile I always remember him by. I think what that passage implies is one who puts money (material wealth) ahead of all other things in life, including spirituality, can easily become jaded enough that he sees nothing but money in his eyes that veils the path to the Absolute.

That being said... to my own mind, money is like oil, it acts as a lubricant to make life operate smoothly and easily. Without oil (money) life becomes very difficult to maintain... it's social gears rubbing together with a friction that brings unrest because the oil is short or even missing. Money should not be seen as nothing more than an idol to be worshiped, but a tool for all people to use as an instrument of exchange to maintain their lives, pay for the necessities and an occasional gift for a reward, for others or personal. When we hear of this extreme wealth that defies logic, i.e. multi-BILLIONaires that most common people have no idea how much that billion really is, makes that wealthy person somewhat of an elitist... not just oil for maintaining the gears of society but the oil well controlling society. An uncomfortable image for most who know their own limitations.

While society's low to middle wage employees have not seen a real increase in their wages in too long a period of time, statistics show that the accumulation of great wealth is continuing at a comfortable pace for those same wealthy. Perhaps the current financial problems we are experiencing may slow down the exponential growth of money into the coffers of the wealthiest. I ultimately see the course of Nature as being the great leveler in bringing Karma to all of us, no favoritism shown. Yes, we have no choice in the ultimate end, but we do have a need to voice our opinion, afterall, we are all connected in this life... we should all have a reasonable say-so as to our feelings.

[dang it! time has passed by so quickly with my meanderings that the time is approaching 7:pm and still there is no dinner to be had. Nate is sitting behind me hinting for his Friday night pizza. I will oblige him. Have a good night, amigo... ]

A hail and hearty ‘hello,’ my desert dwelling friend, M(oses’s) T(ablets). My day went as if shot from a cannon, it passed so quickly, as do they all. But, since I was neither forced to go to work for a living, nor was I waterboarded by Republicans, I enjoyed the day immensely.

MT: Phar Lepht had a pleasant, clear day until late this afternoon when clouds crept in from the west to cast a pall of sorts over the land.

NS: Twas sunny here, due to our clouds migrating phar to the lepht. Hit temperatures as high as 53, heights not seen for over a month. It enabled me to comfortably build a footstool in the yard. Warmer yet, today; on which I’ll build another footstool for my other foot.

MT: Bless her and her impeccable taste, along with your own of course, sans the 'blessing' which I trust you'd find unnecessary if not unbelievable.

NS: On the rare occasions that I am given a blessing, the gods burst out laughing.

MT: BUT! pray tell what did you mean by 'my wife persists in holding you in high esteem from her several conversations with you in the past' ?

NS: I know. I’m just as incredulous as you appear to be. She’s apparently slipping into her esteeming dotage.

MT: Have I conversed with her in some past life

NS: Indeed. For every moment begins with a birth, and ends with a death. A few years’ worth of such moments ago, she and thee conversed on occasions at the “PN” discussion site. (I’m tempted to say that she called herself “Pyschonaut,” but I will attempt honesty, if only for its novelty) She posts, mostly on Buddhist sites, as “Subjectivity 9” (S9), my fellow mystic. Perhaps, you recall her?

MT: I'm such a denouncer!

NS: Too true. I find myself often wondering:
“When will he learn that ‘it is All good’?”

”There was in them what is called, ‘the want of any mind to resist the Tao’.” (Chuang tse)

MT: Please take my words as you feel them before attempting to put logic to them...

NS: I “feel them” logically. We’re close, you and I, but don’t get us confused with each other. You’re the emotive guy, remember? If only I could borrow your mind ‘to emote what you wrote.’ And, I’d lend you mine, so to ‘reason out what I reasonably spout.’

MT: When reason and wisdom are most called for, the call often resonates as a shriek that grates at the nerves of the unsuspecting... which often erases the reasoning and the wisdom from again catching the attention of those who would most benefit. An unfortunate circumstance,

NS: You’re right, about them being wrong. I’ve heard it said that when women complain they are asking for sympathy, but men (missing the point) tend to offer solutions instead. I doubt that it is only females who more often seek sympathy. I recall Gov Dukakus’s drop in the polls for not responding emotionally, but with justice, when asked how he’d deal with his wife’s being hypothetically raped. In a (Law Enforcement) class debate, full of hardened cops, this same issue came up. I was roundly booed down for the audacity of suggesting ‘due process,’ as my procedure, over that of vengeful murder and mayhem.

Yes, emotionally we are all children. But, you and I are here discussing (hopefully) as reasonable adults.

MT: But I do want to assure you that I have quite possibly a larger than most array of thoughts that have originated within moi, as difficult a concept you may find that to be.

NS: Not difficult at all, my friend. I was merely comparing two approaches anyone may take, regardless of their intellectual or audile endowments, i.e. to reason it out on their own, or to simply whine with the whiners.

MT: You have an Englishman's sense of humour, which I rather enjoy.

NS: Thank you. In fact, I am of Anglo origins, and not Latin, as my name would seem to indicate. I note that you spell humor with the Brit spelling, ‘humour.’ Apparently, you speak Brit as well as Canuck, eh?

MT: That is why it is imperative for you to use your overwhelming intellectual prowess to spread the message to take this country out of it's imbalance.

NS: My “overwhelming” intellect tells me that swings of ‘imbalance’ are the status quo. And, that to meddle with pendulums only screws up nature’s timing. We’ve had a prolonged period of excess, and now the party is over. Though, most are reluctant to leave it, leave it we must. Time now for a swing to shortages, or didn’t you know that pipers must be paid? I’ve seen this dozens of times throughout history’s never-ending cycles. Even an ancient Egyptian would say, ‘so, what’s new?’. You may as well try to repeal the law of gravity.

MT: Does it take stupidity to hoard? Is that the secret of the woodpecker and the squirrel?

NS: These animals are merely setting aside provisions sufficient for their winter months’ need, no more than that. Your complaint was about ‘excess beyond need,’ was it not?

MT: I take it that your definition of 'real wealth' is not just a small fortune but an outlandish fortune

NS: What I said would apply to any amount that exceeds one’s perceived needs. What does one do with that (thousand, million, billion) extra amount? Either they get rid of it (i.e. give, spend, gamble, hide), or they keep it (i.e. invest in others). If they keep it well enough, it can grow into amounts you find profane. But, still they must either give it all back, or invest (put to productive work) helping others. People cheer a philanthropist who gives a charitable hand-out, but miss the entrepreneur who gives jobs for lifetimes that enhances, rather than robs, the recipient’s self-respect.

MT: I would also ask that same individual,"How much money do you need to keep you happy,?"

NS: The more money his money generates, the more he is contributing to the welfare of society. Just as a worker adds his effort to society by earning a wage, both in his production and his consumption; likewise, an investor adds his wealth’s effort to society by earning his interest and dividends, in the jobs and production he creates, and in his and his workers’, consumption. There is plenty of available labor, and raw materials, but capital is preciously rare and worth its weight in gold.

Your uncle’s story seems contradictory. He loved his business most, yet he died for lack of family—not lack of business. It only proves that you did not know the man’s heart’s priorities, only how he liked to occupy his time. The latter does not betray the former.

MT: to my own mind, money is like oil, it acts as a lubricant to make life operate smoothly and easily.

Ns: You are only thinking of money as a consumer. You take a consumption perspective of wealth, as do most. ‘Capital’ does not deal in consumption. I’ve no doubt that I live a far more frugal lifestyle than you. I don’t mean to fault you in this, as I too am simply living the way I feel most comfortable. If it took twice the amount that you require, then I would spend that amount and not apologize for doing so. After I spend what I want, everything else is no longer ‘money’ per se, but is held as capital. Capital comes and goes in another monetary reality entirely, while spending money is figured in cents. I still pick up pennies on the ground.

If I gained a billion dollars, nothing in my life would change, except where I now put 100’s of thousands, I would put millions, to work. It is all just zeros on balance sheets, nothing to do with daily life. I wish you could understand this dichotomy of values. I’m clearly doing a poor job of getting it across.

MT: makes that wealthy person somewhat of an elitist.

NS: I’ve shared prison cells with impoverished elitists. That is a function of ego, not one’s gifts or bank balance. No one gives more to a society than does the super wealthy investor. If he is like Warren Buffet, placing the money where it is most productive, then he is more a benefactor than a poor investor is.

MT: one who puts money (material wealth) ahead of all other things in life, including spirituality, can easily become jaded enough that he sees nothing but money in his eyes that veils the path to the Absolute.

NS: Material concerns of any kind are veils if you conceive of yourself as the person holding those concerns. Money management is just a job, like any other, nothing more or less.

Monk: ”What would you tell a person who has ‘nothing’?
Master: “I’d tell him to get rid of it.” (Zen dudes, forget who)

MT: but we do have a need to voice our opinion, afterall, we are all connected in this life... we should all have a reasonable say-so as to our feelings.

NS: Can’t fault free speech! I defend anyone’s right to say even dumb things, just as much as I defend my right to dumbly say that it is a dumb thing for them to say.

Save me the pizza crusts, amigo. Later…

note: this is my second reply to this post... having spent well over one hour this morning in choosing my words carefully in response to you, I strangely, once again hit some unknown key which immediately cause my fascinating effort to disappear to never return, despite several attempts to bring it back from the netherworld of cyberspace. This is the 3rd time such a happening has occurred, which has to be some kind of record that shouldn't be kept. that being said, let us go forward -

NS: ... since I was neither forced to go to work for a living, nor was I waterboarded by Republicans, I enjoyed the day immensely.

Be thankful, my friend, that Dick Cheney has no say-so about your retirement from society. Waterboarding seems to be rather a favorite cruelty of his which gives him a 'wonderfully' demonic sneer whenever he is seen to use the word.

NS: It enabled me to comfortably build a footstool in the yard. Warmer yet, today; on which I’ll build another footstool for my other foot.

Ahh, the creative spirit, N(o) S(lackard), drawing you out into the great outdoors where you can entertain your carpentry skills, one foot at a time. My hope is your second day on the craft track was successful and gave that left foot a home to boot (!).

NS: Indeed. … she and thee conversed on occasions at the “PN” discussion site. (I’m tempted to say that she called herself “Pyschonaut,” but I will attempt honesty, if only for its novelty) She posts, mostly on Buddhist sites, as “Subjectivity 9” (S9), my fellow mystic. Perhaps, you recall her?

Gadz, man! A mystical twosome living under the same roof! You must have a large enough home to afford two mystical heads to expand freely without another's interruptions.

But I must apologize to S9 and sadly report that I have no memory of exchanging comments with her. That has absolutely nothing to do with her personally but has everything to do with my memory... short term is rapidly deteriorating to the point where CRS is not a funny sideline joke, but more and more a definite reality. Oddly my long term memory is still quite sharp... depending upon how long is long, of course!

NS: Too true. I find myself often wondering:
“When will he learn that ‘it is All good’?”

Whoa there, N(on) S(top)... cool your wondering for a moment.

What is this 'good' I see in that statement? Good is a comparison with bad, which equals two, which equals (mercy! Can I say it?) duality. Being the fine upstanding mystic you are, would not your pure mystical state transcend this mundane duality-thing? After all, we both agree (perhaps I may include S9 ?), the ALL is indivisible and without hu'man qualities such as a good and a bad.

”There was in them what is called, ‘the want of any mind to resist the Tao’.” (Chuang tse)

Them... wasn't that Van Morrison's first band way back when..? Although I have no reason to disagree with your friend, Chuang, I must remind what he is saying can only be found the same way old Chuangster did – self-searching. True he is duly noting what he has found on his personal pilgrimage as all who seek must do.

NS: You’re the emotive guy, remember? If only I could borrow your mind ‘to emote what you wrote.’ And, I’d lend you mine, so to ‘reason out what I reasonably spout.’

Lovely... mtmynd, the emotive one. It has a ring to it, pleasant, non-threatening... peaceful, even. I may hijack that word for some special purpose somewhere down the line, if you don't mind, of course.

This borrowing of minds … much like a 'what if' situation that may serve imagination well for mental exercise. My latest Stream is founded in 'what if'... the basis of the entire Stream.

NS: I’ve heard it said that when women complain they are asking for sympathy, but men (missing the point) tend to offer solutions instead.

In my own 39+ years of sharing life with a woman, I am not unlike other men in that situation where our lovely 'she' at the mere mention of discomfort or annoyance summons up in the male species an immediate desire to eliminate that discomfort.

She: “I'm tired of looking at your pile of magazines over there...”

He: “You don't really want me to move them right now, in the middle of replying to Non Sum..?”

She: “Of course not, dummy... I wasn't talking about right this minute. Tomorrow or next week or whenever would be fine....”

NS: I was roundly booed down for the audacity of suggesting ‘due process,’ as my procedure, over that of vengeful murder and mayhem.

I cannot visualize your response to being booed down, amigo. Did you report this incident to S9 when you returned home? Logic ends up in second place, at best, when it comes to pacifying the female emotions. It's simply not worth the time and effort to do otherwise the majority of times, eh?

NS: Yes, emotionally we are all children. But, you and I are here discussing (hopefully) as reasonable adults.

Why put emotions in the children department, isolating it from our hu'manness at any age?

But yes, we do our discussing with reason and care, utilizing logic and even mysticism when it is called for. I trust this behavior is favorably referred to as 'adult'..?

NS: In fact, I am of Anglo origins, and not Latin, as my name would seem to indicate.

Interesting. Even though my own curiosity has not been inclined to ask about your socialized name, your ego name... I know one day that will change and I will delicately ask about that very same thing: “NS, the time has come, my friend, when I must ask you, 'What is your last name?'”

NS: I note that you spell humor with the Brit spelling, ‘humour.’ Apparently, you speak Brit as well as Canuck, eh?

I used the British spelling only to enhance my comment regarding your own 'humour', but you know that. The British spelling has a worldwide acceptance I believe... Canada, NewZealand, Australia, Hong Kong, Israel (S8's own judih), Argentina (I've noticed S8's 'arcadia' spells with that extra 'u') and I've also seen it used with a old member here who is German.


NS: My “overwhelming” intellect tells me that swings of ‘imbalance’ are the status quo. And, that to meddle with pendulums only screws up nature’s timing.

We are in agreement regarding the '(im)balancing act' that has been postponed to the point of unreasonable and worse.

NS: We’ve had a prolonged period of excess, and now the party is over. Though, most are reluctant to leave it, leave it we must. Time now for a swing to shortages...

Undoubtedly, old boy... but I do dread seeing those who really had nothing to party to begin with about join in the delayed suffering that lies ahead.

NS: I’ve seen this dozens of times throughout history’s never-ending cycles. Even an ancient Egyptian would say, ‘so, what’s new?’. You may as well try to repeal the law of gravity.

Gadz, man! You've kept your true age under wraps, eh, going all the way back to ancient Egypt! Impressive. Has your wife been a passenger all along with you..?

This morning I came upon an article about Edgar Allan Poe and a fairly brief recall of his life. There was a part that struck me like a bolt of lightning – the Panic of 1837 which among other things, this writer spoke of the housing bubble being burst due to rampant speculation that triggered the same response as today's housing market did not too long ago.

NS: These animals are merely setting aside provisions sufficient for their winter months’ need, no more than that.

It was just this past fall when we were doing some chores on our small plot of land in Ruidoso, NM, when we felled an old dead Ponderosa pine on the property. Upon hitting the ground much of the dead bark fell off revealing an enormous cache of various nuts and seeds, far too many for a few woodpeckers I'm sure, that should have been photographed it was so remarkable.

NS: People cheer a philanthropist who gives a charitable hand-out, but miss the entrepreneur who gives jobs for lifetimes that enhances, rather than robs, the recipient’s self-respect.

Very well stated, N(ot) S(tarved)... and worthy information for many to reflect upon, including myself. Always interested in learning about things and stuff pertinent to my own life, this was put succinctly. I see nothing 'wrong' with either philanthropy or with business minds that not only (hopefully) advance their investment, but offer a working wage to others. Where my own discomfort and complaint comes into play is when I hear of the large corporations who wield their influence (power) to make the playing field in their own reflection, so to speak, which may affect a struggling business to succeed as well as the powerfully wealthy. I also have objection to the 1%'ers who buy votes in our government which may not favor the majority but only favor themselves. When the current statistics reveal that the working class in our country has not had a real increase in their pay in several years but the Corporate Giants, as example, have doled out huge amounts of benefits and payroll that maybe up to 300% and more than the working class that labors for them. This type of inequity is, in my eyes, an unfairness that in the bottom line, does little to enhance the well-being of our society but rather jeopardizes the stability of such.

This imbalance of wages may be one of the factors that will regain a level of parity which favors both ends of the business game. I believe a search on Google would show many other countries, with democratic governments, do not have this huge disparity which may be the highest in the 'free world' of trade and business.

NS: The more money his money generates, the more he is contributing to the welfare of society.

I trust you fully believe in this statement, but just like all things hu'man there is the opposing side to this ideal. There is the inherent problem with greed that seems to creep in regardless of controls (buying the vote certainly can contribute to the greed), many of such that has caused the financial problems of our day. As you so astutely pointed out, this is not anything new for hu'manity, but rather it is new for the current generation. We all seem to take our turns at the ups and downs of civilization.

NS: There is plenty of available labor, and raw materials, but capital is preciously rare and worth its weight in gold.

True.

NS: Your uncle’s story seems contradictory. He loved his business most, yet he died for lack of family—not lack of business.

This lack of family for most comes with age. When all has been accomplished in the end (generally speaking), it's family that one can count on for love, comfort and trust. Those that have no family or are estranged from them, will get by and many certainly do so. But as our older age continues approaching, so does our realization that our past accomplishments are only that – accomplishments that have passed. It is the present which has been either missed or avoided my so many, often finding a refuge in work for a future rather than in enjoying now while it is available.

Ns: You are only thinking of money as a consumer. You take a consumption perspective of wealth, as do most.

All of us are consumers in varying degrees, depending upon needs and wants. When I say money is like oil that lubricates a society's needs, it is no different that one consumer or one nation... the world's people all have similar needs and varying wants. Certainly you have your own needs and your own wants that are fulfilled with money.. lubricating the means of availability to attain those needs and wants. Is that consumption? Of course! Consuming is what the beast does to survive. This is where gluttony may come into the picture we're discussing. But keeping that under control, the average person consumes and uses the agreed upon dollar to do so.

When you write: ‘Capital’ does not deal in consumption, does not allow for the fact that capital is the reason consumption occurs. Without capital, no consumption.

NS: Capital comes and goes in another monetary reality entirely, while spending money is figured in cents. I still pick up pennies on the ground.

Sounds to me what you are confirming is the versatility of capital (money). Money (capital) must move or else it will become stagnant... not gaining in value. If there were no wants in life, money would be drastically reduced to use for needs only. The good capitalist enterprises ruthlessly competes for our wants to create more money to create more wants to make more money to create more wants.... ad infinitum, or so the wanting capitalist hopes. Are we in any agreement here, amigo? [btw: I also pick up those ignored pennies on the ground]

NS: I wish you could understand this dichotomy of values. I’m clearly doing a poor job of getting it across.

If you see me as a misled soul due to your inability to properly explain this subject to me, you just may be right! Now that I've offered some of what I think, does that gain any credibility with you?

NS: No one gives more to a society than does the super wealthy investor. If he is like Warren Buffet, placing the money where it is most productive, then he is more a benefactor than a poor investor is.

You'll excuse me while I give that some more in depth thought. On the surface it sounds almost saint-like the way you express it and that alone gives me the necessary pause for the cause, which I will give.

NS: Money management is just a job, like any other, nothing more or less.

I like that. I'm perhaps a little late to the game, but the game I still find interesting.

Monk: ”What would you tell a person who has ‘nothing’?
Master: “I’d tell him to get rid of it.” (Zen dudes, forget who)

I've always loved those Zen dudes... they speak my language. Are you familiar with what those Zen dudes call 'Crazy Clouds' ?

NS: Can’t fault free speech! I defend anyone’s right to say even dumb things, just as much as I defend my right to dumbly say that it is a dumb thing for them to say.

Too much dumbness does little to smarten the situation.
NS: Save me the pizza crusts, amigo.

Stowed away in a zip lock in the freezer awaiting your need, my friend...

Speaking of pizza, I have just noticed that I do have some hunger.

Later...

Hi M(ustbe)T(uesday),
MT: note: this is my second reply to this post. .. having spent well over one hour this morning in choosing…some unknown key

NS: Your persistent effort to reply is appreciated. Your persistent failure to save as you go is mourned mightily.

M(entioningT(orturers): Waterboarding seems to be rather a favorite cruelty of his (Cheney’s) which gives him a 'wonderfully' demonic sneer whenever he is seen to use the word.

NS: You’re right! I believe I’ve noticed that sneer, now that you mention it. All these by-pass surgeries; I’m not fooled in the least by his pretensions of actually possessing a heart.

MT: My hope is your second day on the craft track was successful and gave that left foot a home to boot (!).

NS: Thank you, for your well wishes. I constructed the right footstool last, since (like yourself) my second efforts more often come out 'right.'

M(ystified)T(houghts): Gadz, man! A mystical twosome living under the same roof! You must have a large enough home to afford two mystical heads to expand freely without another's interruptions.

NS: Neither time nor ‘space’ is an issue for we mystics, since we deny both mind and body, and comprise one and the same empty Self.

M(emorable)T(ravail): But I must apologize to S9 and sadly report that I have no memory of exchanging comments with her.

NS: No need to apologize, she would have forgotten what you were apologizing for anyway. I fear we are all forgetting to remember as well as we once did. An hour ago I went to retrieve my chocolate-cucumber bread; since thankfully this time I had remembered to set the timer and needn’t await notification from the smoke alarm. But alas, I forgot to turn on the oven.
‘Set timer, set oven.’ Ever so much to remember.

MT: What is this 'good' I see in that statement? Good is a comparison with bad, which equals two, which equals (mercy! Can I say it?) duality.

NS: One cannot do dualistic English, nor can one do the dualistic world, without recourse to duality, my dueling friend. ‘Advaistism’ (Non-dualism), like Taoism, recognizes the inseparable Yin/Yang structure of thought and its imagined creatures. Ironically, a “dualist” is someone who conceives of dualities as singularities. E.g. a Christian holds that one day evil will be abolished and that good alone shall reign; causing a Taoist snicker.

M(entioning)T(ranscendence): After all, we both agree (perhaps I may include S9 ?), the ALL is indivisible and without hu'man qualities such as a good and a bad.

NS: Yes, S9 can safely be included in your conclusion. Can we include SooZen, as well? I’d hate to leave her divisible, and with hu’man qualities, where neither apply. Self, not being a concept, remains inconceivable.

When Bodhidharma was asked: “Who are you,” he answered: “I have no idea.”

MT: Although I have no reason to disagree with your friend, Chuang, I must remind what he is saying can only be found the same way old Chuangster did – self-searching. True he is duly noting what he has found on his personal pilgrimage as all who seek must do.

NS: “Self-searching is needed to locate one’s Self, but not necessarily in order to live one’s life wisely. We’ve all heard the sound of sound advice (e.g. “go with the flow.”), realized and unrealized alike.

MT: I may hijack that word (“emotive”) for some special purpose somewhere down the line, if you don't mind, of course.

NS: I tend to restrict my vocabulary to public words that are well clear of any copyright protection by the time I access them. If anything, I’d say ‘emotive’ is much more your word by natural rights than ever being mine, my emotive friend. So, what the hey, emote away.

MT: My latest Stream is founded in 'what if'... the basis of the entire Stream.

Ns: Thanks for the head-sup. ‘What if’ I’d missed it?

MT: She: “Of course not, dummy..”

NS: I see your wife too has pet names for her inferior fraction.

MT: I cannot visualize your response to being booed down, amigo. Did you report this incident to S9 when you returned home?

NS: My response was a shrug. What else is left for a stranger in a strange land to do? Yes, I shared the amusing event with S9, my fellow philosopher & estrangee.

MT: Why put emotions in the children department, isolating it from our hu'manness at any age?

NS: Children are human too. Generally, our capacity, and propensity, to reason develops as we gain adulthood, but our emotions themselves, whether under reasoned control or not, seem to remain much as they were throughout childhood. My Spiritualist minister, Rev Miller (now resident ‘on the other side’) pointed this fact out to me years ago. I’ve experienced nothing emotional, from within or without, to challenge this assertion, have you?

MT: “NS, the time has come, my friend, when I must ask you, 'What is your last name?'”

NS: I’ve lived under assumed names for years, and like Shakespeare’s rose, I smell as sweet by any other you might choose to lend me. It’s probably best to leave a bit of mystery for such a dull and open book as I already am.

MT: but I do dread seeing those who really had nothing to party to begin with about join in the delayed suffering that lies ahead.

NS: And, I as well. It seems we live among a very selfish population that is eager to spend like mad to secure ’their’ illusory safety from imagined terrorists, but fears for the budget when the prospect of assisting less fortunate fellow taxpayers is presented.

MT: Gadz, man! You've kept your true age under wraps, eh, going all the way back to ancient Egypt! Impressive. Has your wife been a passenger all along with you..?

NS: Of course. Why else would our daughter have called her, “Mummy”?

MT: the Panic of 1837 which among other things, this writer spoke of the housing bubble being burst due to rampant speculation that triggered the same response as today's housing market did not too long ago.

NS: “Nothing new under the sun,” saith the preacher. Read enough history, and one gets pretty jaded by the cries of impending doom.

”These are the end-times, just as they were in our father’s day, and in his father’s day as well.”

MT: Where my own discomfort and complaint comes into play is when I hear of the large corporations who wield their influence (power) to make the playing field in their own reflection,

NS: Who among us does not, whether as individuals or members of an organization? Only that apathetic individual should throw the first stone.

MT: I also have objection to the 1%'ers who buy votes in our government which may not favor the majority but only favor themselves.

NS: Are you speaking about illegal ‘bribes’?

MT: the Corporate Giants, as example, have doled out huge amounts of benefits and payroll that maybe up to 300% and more than the working class

NS: As an owner, and creditor, I am as adverse to these exorbitant ‘gifts’ that management gives itself as are the workers. I’m not sure what can be done about it, especially when Uncle intrudes into the market’s natural cure for waste and excess by injecting taxpayer’s money to support the foolishness.

MT: There is the inherent problem with greed that seems to creep in regardless of controls

NS: I’m of the Gordon Gecko school, “greed is good.” It’s just a pejorative term for ‘ambition.’ I suspect the fault lies with the ‘controllers’ rather than the ‘controls.’ Why fault the laws, if the police don’t fairly enforce the ones we already have. ‘Greed’ is like the fire (burning often over 500 degrees F) I have in my living room. It requires the application of firm limits, not a smaller flame to heat my home.

MT: But as our older age continues approaching, so does our realization that our past accomplishments are only that – accomplishments that have passed. It is the present which has been either missed or avoided my so many, often finding a refuge in work for a future rather than in enjoying now while it is available.

NS: Every choice we make cancels most of the alternatives. Only children plan on being President and a fireman all at the same time. For some, the stimulation of a career offers the greater allure, especially when young. Others, choose family first, and wonder at what they might have accomplished in a career. Alternative desires must pay the price with latter regrets. I can’t see how it can ever be prevented(?).

MT: When you write: ‘Capital’ does not deal in consumption, does not allow for the fact that capital is the reason consumption occurs. Without capital, no consumption.

Ns: I don’t disagree that the two are connected. I am claiming that there are differing perspectives given over to: ‘money for personal expenses,’ and ‘money as a tool.’ Yes, billions are “excessive” in light of the former, but no amount is excessive in light of the latter. It would be like saying that a giant steam shovel is excessive when anyone should be able to feed themselves with a spoon.

MT: Money (capital) must move or else it will become stagnant... not gaining in value.

NS: With inflation and taxes, like rust never sleeping; capital must run just to stay even.

MT: The good capitalist enterprises ruthlessly competes for our wants to create more money to create more wants to make more money to create more wants.... ad infinitum, or so the wanting capitalist hopes. Are we in any agreement here, amigo?

NS: Are your wants in someone else’s hands? Socrates claimed he felt rich whenever he visited the market -- there were so many things offered that he felt no need for. I never blame a salesman for trying to encourage a sale. Even the serpent in the garden of Eden was just doing his job. If the purchase was ill considered, blame the individual whose job it was to give consideration to making it. That was his job, and he should have been doing it; not blaming others for not doing his job along with theirs.

MT: Now that I've offered some of what I think, does that gain any credibility with you?

NS: You are ever credible with me, Cecil. Please take no offense, as none was intended. I just felt my expressive efforts were inadequate to the task. Not to sell you on ‘my’ pov, but to clearly present a capitalist pov for your inspection, and refutation (if required). I’ve no doubt that capitalism can be faulted with sound reason, as can any ism.

Cripes, this is getting way toooo long; apologies. I'll give you a "Crazy Cloud" quote next time. I best bail. Bye.

Hi M(ustbe)T(uesday),
MT: note: this is my second reply to this post. .. having spent well over one hour this morning in choosing…some unknown key

NS: Your persistent effort to reply is appreciated. Your persistent failure to save as you go is mourned mightily.

M(entioningT(orturers): Waterboarding seems to be rather a favorite cruelty of his (Cheney’s) which gives him a 'wonderfully' demonic sneer whenever he is seen to use the word.

NS: You’re right! I believe I’ve noticed that sneer, now that you mention it. All these by-pass surgeries; I’m not fooled in the least by his pretensions of actually possessing a heart.

MT: My hope is your second day on the craft track was successful and gave that left foot a home to boot (!).

NS: Thank you, for your well wishes. I constructed the right footstool last, since (like yourself) my second efforts more often come out 'right.'

M(ystified)T(houghts): Gadz, man! A mystical twosome living under the same roof! You must have a large enough home to afford two mystical heads to expand freely without another's interruptions.

NS: Neither time nor ‘space’ is an issue for we mystics, since we deny both mind and body, and comprise one and the same empty Self.

M(emorable)T(ravail): But I must apologize to S9 and sadly report that I have no memory of exchanging comments with her.

NS: No need to apologize, she would have forgotten what you were apologizing for anyway. I fear we are all forgetting to remember as well as we once did. An hour ago I went to retrieve my chocolate-cucumber bread; since thankfully this time I had remembered to set the timer and needn’t await notification from the smoke alarm. But alas, I forgot to turn on the oven.
‘Set timer, set oven.’ Ever so much to remember.

MT: What is this 'good' I see in that statement? Good is a comparison with bad, which equals two, which equals (mercy! Can I say it?) duality.

NS: One cannot do dualistic English, nor can one do the dualistic world, without recourse to duality, my dueling friend. ‘Advaistism’ (Non-dualism), like Taoism, recognizes the inseparable Yin/Yang structure of thought and its imagined creatures. Ironically, a “dualist” is someone who conceives of dualities as singularities. E.g. a Christian holds that one day evil will be abolished and that good alone shall reign; causing a Taoist snicker.

M(entioning)T(ranscendence): After all, we both agree (perhaps I may include S9 ?), the ALL is indivisible and without hu'man qualities such as a good and a bad.

NS: Yes, S9 can safely be included in your conclusion. Can we include SooZen, as well? I’d hate to leave her divisible, and with hu’man qualities, where neither apply. Self, not being a concept, remains inconceivable.

When Bodhidharma was asked: “Who are you,” he answered: “I have no idea.”

MT: Although I have no reason to disagree with your friend, Chuang, I must remind what he is saying can only be found the same way old Chuangster did – self-searching. True he is duly noting what he has found on his personal pilgrimage as all who seek must do.

NS: “Self-searching is needed to locate one’s Self, but not necessarily in order to live one’s life wisely. We’ve all heard the sound of sound advice (e.g. “go with the flow.”), realized and unrealized alike.

MT: I may hijack that word (“emotive”) for some special purpose somewhere down the line, if you don't mind, of course.

NS: I tend to restrict my vocabulary to public words that are well clear of any copyright protection by the time I access them. If anything, I’d say ‘emotive’ is much more your word by natural rights than ever being mine, my emotive friend. So, what the hey, emote away.

MT: My latest Stream is founded in 'what if'... the basis of the entire Stream.

Ns: Thanks for the head-sup. ‘What if’ I’d missed it?

MT: She: “Of course not, dummy..”

NS: I see your wife too has pet names for her inferior fraction.

MT: I cannot visualize your response to being booed down, amigo. Did you report this incident to S9 when you returned home?

NS: My response was a shrug. What else is left for a stranger in a strange land to do? Yes, I shared the amusing event with S9, my fellow philosopher & estrangee.

MT: Why put emotions in the children department, isolating it from our hu'manness at any age?

NS: Children are human too. Generally, our capacity, and propensity, to reason develops as we gain adulthood, but our emotions themselves, whether under reasoned control or not, seem to remain much as they were throughout childhood. My Spiritualist minister, Rev Miller (now resident ‘on the other side’) pointed this fact out to me years ago. I’ve experienced nothing emotional, from within or without, to challenge this assertion, have you?

MT: “NS, the time has come, my friend, when I must ask you, 'What is your last name?'”

NS: I’ve lived under assumed names for years, and like Shakespeare’s rose, I smell as sweet by any other you might choose to lend me. It’s probably best to leave a bit of mystery for such a dull and open book as I already am.

MT: but I do dread seeing those who really had nothing to party to begin with about join in the delayed suffering that lies ahead.

NS: And, I as well. It seems we live among a very selfish population that is eager to spend like mad to secure ’their’ illusory safety from imagined terrorists, but fears for the budget when the prospect of assisting less fortunate fellow taxpayers is presented.

MT: Gadz, man! You've kept your true age under wraps, eh, going all the way back to ancient Egypt! Impressive. Has your wife been a passenger all along with you..?

NS: Of course. Why else would our daughter have called her, “Mummy”?

MT: the Panic of 1837 which among other things, this writer spoke of the housing bubble being burst due to rampant speculation that triggered the same response as today's housing market did not too long ago.

NS: “Nothing new under the sun,” saith the preacher. Read enough history, and one gets pretty jaded by the cries of impending doom.

”These are the end-times, just as they were in our father’s day, and in his father’s day as well.”

MT: Where my own discomfort and complaint comes into play is when I hear of the large corporations who wield their influence (power) to make the playing field in their own reflection,

NS: Who among us does not, whether as individuals or members of an organization? Only that apathetic individual should throw the first stone.

MT: I also have objection to the 1%'ers who buy votes in our government which may not favor the majority but only favor themselves.

NS: Are you speaking about illegal ‘bribes’?

MT: the Corporate Giants, as example, have doled out huge amounts of benefits and payroll that maybe up to 300% and more than the working class

NS: As an owner, and creditor, I am as adverse to these exorbitant ‘gifts’ that management gives itself as are the workers. I’m not sure what can be done about it, especially when Uncle intrudes into the market’s natural cure for waste and excess by injecting taxpayer’s money to support the foolishness.

MT: There is the inherent problem with greed that seems to creep in regardless of controls

NS: I’m of the Gordon Gecko school, “greed is good.” It’s just a pejorative term for ‘ambition.’ I suspect the fault lies with the ‘controllers’ rather than the ‘controls.’ Why fault the laws, if the police don’t fairly enforce the ones we already have. ‘Greed’ is like the fire (burning often over 500 degrees F) I have in my living room. It requires the application of firm limits, not a smaller flame to heat my home.

MT: But as our older age continues approaching, so does our realization that our past accomplishments are only that – accomplishments that have passed. It is the present which has been either missed or avoided my so many, often finding a refuge in work for a future rather than in enjoying now while it is available.

NS: Every choice we make cancels most of the alternatives. Only children plan on being President and a fireman all at the same time. For some, the stimulation of a career offers the greater allure, especially when young. Others, choose family first, and wonder at what they might have accomplished in a career. Alternative desires must pay the price with latter regrets. I can’t see how it can ever be prevented(?).

MT: When you write: ‘Capital’ does not deal in consumption, does not allow for the fact that capital is the reason consumption occurs. Without capital, no consumption.

Ns: I don’t disagree that the two are connected. I am claiming that there are differing perspectives given over to: ‘money for personal expenses,’ and ‘money as a tool.’ Yes, billions are “excessive” in light of the former, but no amount is excessive in light of the latter. It would be like saying that a giant steam shovel is excessive when anyone should be able to feed themselves with a spoon.

MT: Money (capital) must move or else it will become stagnant... not gaining in value.

NS: With inflation and taxes, like rust never sleeping; capital must run just to stay even.

MT: The good capitalist enterprises ruthlessly competes for our wants to create more money to create more wants to make more money to create more wants.... ad infinitum, or so the wanting capitalist hopes. Are we in any agreement here, amigo?

NS: Are your wants in someone else’s hands? Socrates claimed he felt rich whenever he visited the market -- there were so many things offered that he felt no need for. I never blame a salesman for trying to encourage a sale. Even the serpent in the garden of Eden was just doing his job. If the purchase was ill considered, blame the individual whose job it was to give consideration to making it. That was his job, and he should have been doing it; not blaming others for not doing his job along with theirs.

MT: Now that I've offered some of what I think, does that gain any credibility with you?

NS: You are ever credible with me, Cecil. Please take no offense, as none was intended. I just felt my expressive efforts were inadequate to the task. Not to sell you on ‘my’ pov, but to clearly present a capitalist pov for your inspection, and refutation (if required). I’ve no doubt that capitalism can be faulted with sound reason, as can any ism.

Cripes, this is getting way toooo long; apologies. I'll give you a "Crazy Cloud" quote next time. I best bail. Bye.

Hi M(ustbe)T(uesday),
MT: note: this is my second reply to this post. .. having spent well over one hour this morning in choosing…some unknown key

NS: Your persistent effort to reply is appreciated. Your persistent failure to save as you go is mourned mightily.

M(entioningT(orturers): Waterboarding seems to be rather a favorite cruelty of his (Cheney’s) which gives him a 'wonderfully' demonic sneer whenever he is seen to use the word.

NS: You’re right! I believe I’ve noticed that sneer, now that you mention it. All these by-pass surgeries; I’m not fooled in the least by his pretensions of actually possessing a heart.

MT: My hope is your second day on the craft track was successful and gave that left foot a home to boot (!).

NS: Thank you, for your well wishes. I constructed the right footstool last, since (like yourself) my second efforts more often come out 'right.'

M(ystified)T(houghts): Gadz, man! A mystical twosome living under the same roof! You must have a large enough home to afford two mystical heads to expand freely without another's interruptions.

NS: Neither time nor ‘space’ is an issue for we mystics, since we deny both mind and body, and comprise one and the same empty Self.

M(emorable)T(ravail): But I must apologize to S9 and sadly report that I have no memory of exchanging comments with her.

NS: No need to apologize, she would have forgotten what you were apologizing for anyway. I fear we are all forgetting to remember as well as we once did. An hour ago I went to retrieve my chocolate-cucumber bread; since thankfully this time I had remembered to set the timer and needn’t await notification from the smoke alarm. But alas, I forgot to turn on the oven.
‘Set timer, set oven.’ Ever so much to remember.

MT: What is this 'good' I see in that statement? Good is a comparison with bad, which equals two, which equals (mercy! Can I say it?) duality.

NS: One cannot do dualistic English, nor can one do the dualistic world, without recourse to duality, my dueling friend. ‘Advaistism’ (Non-dualism), like Taoism, recognizes the inseparable Yin/Yang structure of thought and its imagined creatures. Ironically, a “dualist” is someone who conceives of dualities as singularities. E.g. a Christian holds that one day evil will be abolished and that good alone shall reign; causing a Taoist snicker.

M(entioning)T(ranscendence): After all, we both agree (perhaps I may include S9 ?), the ALL is indivisible and without hu'man qualities such as a good and a bad.

NS: Yes, S9 can safely be included in your conclusion. Can we include SooZen, as well? I’d hate to leave her divisible, and with hu’man qualities, where neither apply. Self, not being a concept, remains inconceivable.

When Bodhidharma was asked: “Who are you,” he answered: “I have no idea.”

MT: Although I have no reason to disagree with your friend, Chuang, I must remind what he is saying can only be found the same way old Chuangster did – self-searching. True he is duly noting what he has found on his personal pilgrimage as all who seek must do.

NS: “Self-searching is needed to locate one’s Self, but not necessarily in order to live one’s life wisely. We’ve all heard the sound of sound advice (e.g. “go with the flow.”), realized and unrealized alike.

MT: I may hijack that word (“emotive”) for some special purpose somewhere down the line, if you don't mind, of course.

NS: I tend to restrict my vocabulary to public words that are well clear of any copyright protection by the time I access them. If anything, I’d say ‘emotive’ is much more your word by natural rights than ever being mine, my emotive friend. So, what the hey, emote away.

MT: My latest Stream is founded in 'what if'... the basis of the entire Stream.

Ns: Thanks for the head-sup. ‘What if’ I’d missed it?

MT: She: “Of course not, dummy..”

NS: I see your wife too has pet names for her inferior fraction.

MT: I cannot visualize your response to being booed down, amigo. Did you report this incident to S9 when you returned home?

NS: My response was a shrug. What else is left for a stranger in a strange land to do? Yes, I shared the amusing event with S9, my fellow philosopher & estrangee.

MT: Why put emotions in the children department, isolating it from our hu'manness at any age?

NS: Children are human too. Generally, our capacity, and propensity, to reason develops as we gain adulthood, but our emotions themselves, whether under reasoned control or not, seem to remain much as they were throughout childhood. My Spiritualist minister, Rev Miller (now resident ‘on the other side’) pointed this fact out to me years ago. I’ve experienced nothing emotional, from within or without, to challenge this assertion, have you?

MT: “NS, the time has come, my friend, when I must ask you, 'What is your last name?'”

NS: I’ve lived under assumed names for years, and like Shakespeare’s rose, I smell as sweet by any other you might choose to lend me. It’s probably best to leave a bit of mystery for such a dull and open book as I already am.

MT: but I do dread seeing those who really had nothing to party to begin with about join in the delayed suffering that lies ahead.

NS: And, I as well. It seems we live among a very selfish population that is eager to spend like mad to secure ’their’ illusory safety from imagined terrorists, but fears for the budget when the prospect of assisting less fortunate fellow taxpayers is presented.

MT: Gadz, man! You've kept your true age under wraps, eh, going all the way back to ancient Egypt! Impressive. Has your wife been a passenger all along with you..?

NS: Of course. Why else would our daughter have called her, “Mummy”?
2 be cont.